[MartinC]

We completed a permanent installation of Rosetta Pilotaware earlier in 2020 including connection to our Funke TRT800A Mode S ES transponder with latest firmware (5.3). Carried out by professional avionics engineer who confirmed ground tests and that ADSB working correctly, set to SIL=0 as non certified GPS from Pilotaware. Sent off the relevant mod forms to LAA last year. Just (January 2021) had the following response from LAA saying that they won't approve the connection for ADSB out because the "TRT range does not comply with the ETSO standard". I have seen nothing on this anywhere, with CAA /LAA and everyone else including Pilotaware encouraging installations of EC units and in particular connections to ES capable transponders for ADSB out as a preferred minimum. Advice?

LAA response to modification forms sent in:

Unfortunately, we can’t approve any ADBS-out connection for the Funke TRT series transponders as they do not possess the appropriate approval. The TRT Series is not approved to ETSO Standard C166B, therefore the ADSB out function can not be approved for use until this certification is sought by the manufacturer. The TRT series is sold as “ADSB Ready” but does not necessarily meet the minimum performance requirements of the ETSO. Unfortunately all transmitting avionics installed in LAA aircraft must hold the relevant approval from the CAA, EASA or FAA.

I am sorry this is not the news you wanted to receive. However, you may still use the pilot aware device in your aircraft as standalone electronic conspicuity not connected to that transponder. If you permanently install it you will just need a PMR in your airframe logbook from your inspector.

If this is correct, it throws into serious question why we are being encouraged by all and sundry to spend money on fitting devices which the regulators won't approve. I am struggling to see how this can be right, especially as I have seen nothing on this subject (LAA approval declined) for this elsewhere.

Anyone else had approval refused by LAA for Funke-GPS ADSB connection?

[skydriller]

From the Funke Website blurb:

Full featured, EASA/FAA certified Class 1 transponder in 160 mm housing and certified for VFR and IFR operation
4-line OLED display shows active and stand-by code, operating mode, flight level and flags
Remote Control Unit TRT800RT available
Operating Modes: Mode A/C, Mode S
Extended Squitter, connection to GPS receiver with adapter cable, ADS-B ready (certification in accordance with ETSO-C166b pending)
Integrated altitude encoder up to 35,000 ft
Configurable energy saving mode especially for gliders
Includes aircraft adapter with address memory for selection of ICAO 24-bit aircraft address, aircraft type and flight ID (for Mode S operation), memory for 8 data sets

[riverrock]

Funke's website says "ADS-B ready (certification in accordance with ETSO-C166b pending)"
Its an old model, I believe it pre-dates the certification standard (although the standard has been out at least 8 years).
Perhaps worth asking Funke if they every plan to certify it?

Does sound like there needs to be a bigger warning though!

[MartinC]

I have emailed Funke asking what the timescale is for certification. I have also seen the 'certification pending' rider on their website, although only recently and I don't recall any information to that effect when we bought the transponder some years ago. As connection of a GPS to enable the extended squitter (ADS-B) function of the Funke is detailed by Pilotaware and elsewhere in the promotion of EC devices, I am somewhat surprised to find the LAA denying approval for this installation in a UK VFR permit aircraft. I am interested to know if anyone else *has* had approval from LAA for their Funke /GPS setup. Otherwise, I assume that others have just not bothered to apply for approval having connected a PAW unit or other GPS (Trig) to the Funke transponder for ADSB.....?

[aerofurb]

Information on transponders and ADSB installations in LAA administered aircraft can be found in Section 9 of LAA Technical Leaflet TL 3.03: Aircraft Avionics Installations:

http://www.lightaircraftassociation.co. ... ations.pdf

[skydriller]

Did I miss it, or is there nothing in there about "ETSO-C166b" ?

[patowalker]

Anyone else had approval refused by LAA for Funke-GPS ADSB connection?

I got approval in 2017 for my TRT 800 built in 2009, linked to a Garmin Aera500.
ADS-B Out definitely enhanced the performance of my Eurostar, as FR24 shows it can exceed 400kts in level flight.

[riverrock]

There was a thread on this before:
viewtopic.php?t=104442
I'm guessing everyone on that thread where using a portable GPS...

Note the last comment - it suggests that Funke are not planning on certifying it.

[leemoore1966]

http://fasvig.org/funke-support-for-unc ... -ads-b-out

[Flying_john]

They continue to advertise and sell the TRT800 series stating ADSB out, but their certification only shows 2C112a and not the required certification C166b !

So in essence there needs to be either:

another document showing they somehow have a waiver for their product

an admission they are selling a non certifiable ADSB out product that cannot be used in European airspace - in which event there needs to be a test case in front of a judge so that monies may be returned to enable purchasers to buy a Trig or some other Certified Mode S ADSB Ext squitter transponder.

[riverrock]

Out of curiosity, does ETSO-C166b just stop a permanent installation, or connection of a portable device in too? They have clearly provided details (and sold upgrades) to people allowing connections.

[MartinC]

Thanks all replied so far, the plot thickens. I am waiting to see what Funke say in response to my email.

One comment I have had via our avionics engineer is that equipment not approved to ETSO-C166b is prohibited from transmitting ADS-B OUT information with an integrity setting of anything other than SIL=0. This seems to suggest that the equipment can be approved at SIL=0, whereas the initial denial of approval received from LAA is a blanket rejection, which we may need to challenge.

Interesting that the Funke TRT800A appears in the list of approved transponders published in LAA's own document dated December 2020 and as Skydriller says, nothing in there about compliance required to ETSO-C166b !!

I have seen some discussion elsewhere about SDA values (something else like SIL), suggesting there is talk of regulators demanding higher standards than GA kit currently being purchased and installed is capable of, so we could all be spending money on obsolete kit (again...).

[Hangar16]

This seems strange. I had a Pilot Aware (portable) wired to a Funke TRT 800H (basically the same as an 800A) set for SIL = 0 approved by the BMAA, as have a number of other owners I know. I can’t see why my setup should be approved and not yours, unless the LAA work under differs rules to the BMAA in this respect.

I’ll be interested to see how this gets resolved
Dan

[Flying_john]

I think the problem is that Funke obtained certification for just Mode S (CS-ETSO-2C112a) they then found that in France the was a problem with Mode S interogations and they had an upgrade to fix a receiver problem which also had to be certified (/ EASA.21O.268 ).

Although they state that they are Extended Squitter equipped, they do not appear to have sought certification.

The other "documents" they have used to get acceptance are :
EUROCAE ED-73B Class 1 Level 2es
EUROCAE ED-26
RTCA DO-160D
RTCA DO-178B Software-Level D

But these are to do with Mode S, performance of Altitude measuring equipment ( as they have a built in altimeter), software verification process incl structural code coverage in conjunction with the testing of the high-level and low-level software requirements, environmental testing - and yet no testing of the ADSB Extended Squitter it would seem.

So I don't think the LAA are rejecting the application because you have made it a permanent fixture, I think they are saying you are not compliant with the basic certification process for a piece of equipment transmitting on 1090Mhz which includes a minimum performance standard (DO-260D) which the Funke does not comply with. Funke will say they produced their kit prior to the standard having been issued (2009) , and yet they still claim to sell and ADSB Ext Squitter device - even though it doesnt comply.

[Flying_john]

One comment I have had via our avionics engineer is that equipment not approved to ETSO-C166b is prohibited from transmitting ADS-B OUT information with an integrity setting of anything other than SIL=0.

It would be interesting to know where your Engineer has read that, esp the last half of the sentence?