Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
#1821289
Stephen Slater wrote:Since we became aware of these issues we've been working with Funke identify a resolution. It appears that as a result some changes are being made in EASA wording that may allow the LAA to offer the approval, provided this is deemed acceptable by the CAA. Watch this space.

Steve


Thanks Steve. Appreciate the efforts of the LAA team fixing a problem not of your making.

:thumleft:
#1821305
Good Luck Steve - I got nowhere with Funke, apart from 2 stock replies, one I posted about CS-Stan and one that #Patowalker has posted, the later of which I have seen before from Funke.

They do seem to miss the point though. Funke always seem to answer from the point of connecting a non approved GPS source, whereas the approval is nothing to do with what you connect to it, that is taken care of by the SIL/SDA values transmitted, since the approval doesn't magically come from no-where if you connect an approved GPS source - that just modifies SIL !

You still need the C166 certification to send extended squitter on 1090 ! - unless Funke have an alternative approval of some sort that satisfies LAA/CAA/EASA since these TRT transponders are fitted in CofA and Permit types.
#1821394
Hi All,

Joe from LAA Engineering here. Here is a positive resolution the team has worked on to get this combination of devices approved. Thanks to all who got in touch to help us find this solution. You know who you are :D
To those of you I wrote to rejecting your application I'll be in touch soon to get it sorted.
If you've any queries please contact LAA Engineering directly :thumleft:

As you may know it is possible to connect an uncertified GNSS (GPS) receiver to a range of Mode S transponders in LAA aircraft to provide uncertified ADS-B Out, which we’ve been approving since 2015 following the successful NATS trial.

It was recently brought to our attention that CS-STAN Issue 3 CS-SC005a (issued in 2019) requires that the transponder for such installations must be certified to ETSO-C166b, which covers the approval of a transponder to transmit ADS-B Out. LAA technical leaflet TL3.03 and LAA procedures also require that “transponders installed in UK aircraft must be of a type that has undergone an appropriate approval process by either EASA, the CAA or the FAA”. Given the lack of CAA rules on this subject, LAA interpret this requirement as a transponder providing ADS-B out must also be certified to ETSO-C166b. For the majority of ADS-B installations approved so far, this certification requirement was not of concern as most installations used a Mode S transponder that was certified to ETSO-C166b (ETSO certifications can be checked here).

Upon further research, LAA Engineering understands that a change in the wording to CS-STAN CS-SC005a ‘Configuration 3’ will be made with the next revision of CS-STAN which will remove the requirement for ETSO-C166b certification of the transponder. Please see this EASA FAQ here.

LAA Engineering is therefore satisfied that ADS-B Out installations with a transponder that is not certified to ETSO-C166b is satisfactory for ‘uncertified’ applications. The transponder must still be compliant with an appropriate certification for Mode-S operation, installed in accordance with the manufacturer’s instructions, and the ADS-B Out quality indicators must be set to SIL/SDA = 0.

All previously approved ADS-B Out connections are still valid and any LAA/MOD7 or LAA/MOD14 applications that were previously rejected can now be processed normally.
Dave W, MartinC, leemoore1966 and 9 others liked this
#1821536
Smaragd wrote:
patowalker wrote:More like "Funke clarifies ADS-B Out rules for LAA". :)

Clearly you haven't dealt with Funke, where clarity is in short supply.


Au contraire. I have been on first name terms with the delightful Tanja for years.

When you read
Stephen Slater wrote:Since we became aware of these issues we've been working with Funke identify a resolution. It appears that as a result some changes are being made in EASA wording that may allow the LAA to offer the approval, provided this is deemed acceptable by the CAA. Watch this space.
Steve

and subsequently they quote a 6 month old EASA clarification, it doesn't take much to put two and two together.
Clive liked this
#1821703
Don't want to rock the boat but that "clarification" is for the installation of.
It doesn't address the lack of type approval/certification of the ADSB device itself (or the transponder equipped to squitter).

Perhaps its one of those "self declaration" routes that Funke "hang their hat on" to establish the sale and fitting of their transponder with ADSB out is legal.

Can you imagine the difficulty if their product blocked the frequency preventing other squitters being received ! due to some design fault, just like the fault in their transponders that caused their early recall, and then the MOD to replace the receiver board that customers had to pay for.

I don't understand why they don't either declare conformance, or send their product to the EASA test house that certifies transponders.
wigglyamp, Ian Melville liked this
#1821774
Years ago I had a Funke radio. It worked perfectly well but reliability was carp. Something in the front-end gave up and it wouldn't work. Then the power supply failed. It got sent back to Germany on both occasions where I was handsomely charged for a repair (and shipping). When it went wrong a third time I cut my losses.

I don't understand why anyone buys any Funke kit. As a company, they have known reliability and compatibility problems in addition to these recent issues. There is now so much really great kit from so many different manufactures across a range of price-points. Why bother with Funke?
cockney steve, Nick liked this
#1845748
I currently haven't got time to read all the pages above so maybe duplicating but will post this info here anyway:

After several years of waiting FUNKE are ready to make upgrades to their Transponders. I believe this will meet the required SIL level to be more recognised by other aircraft EC systems, seems the ETSO isn't 'yet' available but I read this and from the info above that it maybe coming.

See: https://www.funkeavionics.de/service/re ... -upgrades/
From the above page:
Important note for ADS-B upgrades: A new firmware / software is available which now makes the ADS-B transmissions of the transponder conform to the RTCA DO-260B standard. Approval of this function according to ETSO-C166b is NOT yet available.
This upgrade is free of charge for devices from S / N 30860816 (delivered from March 2016). For devices from S / N 30580611 to S / N 30860816 (delivered between November 2011 and March 2016), the repair fee applies from MOD11. Devices shipped before November 2011 cannot be upgraded. In this case, we would be happy to offer you a special discount on a new device with simultaneous disposal of the old device.

Fees are €299 or €399 depending on how old your unit is. If it was delivered after March 2016 it maybe free.
I sent mine back recently but due to some confusion it turned out that it wasn't in the serial number band for upgrade (too old), they did however give me a good discount on a new fully compliant one. I had some protracted dealing with them over the years as I was waiting for them to give me the OK for the upgrade and they were very helpful and communications swift. The shipping in and out of the EU was less smooth.
BEFORE SENDING YOUR TXP OFF make sure you check in with them as they will give you info to put on the parcel to smooth it's way through German Customs.
Hope this helps a few of you with the units in the correct serial number band to make yourselves more visible, Regards, Clive
gaznav liked this