Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
#1799200
Hi all,

I like to idly browse the 'for sale' sections of sites like AFORS, and I notice a lot of planes for sale on there are 'permit to fly'. I think I understand what this is (you basically need an annual inspection by the LAA instead of a type airworthiness certificate), but as someone who's only flown Cessnas and Pipers, I have a couple of random questions!

1. If I bought or joined a group to fly a permit aircraft, could I put the hours in my PPL logbook (as SEP)? I know you can't do it with microlights, but 'permit to fly' covers a large range of types. How do you know if a given plane is useful for maintaining/building your hours?

2. How do you identify the type to ATC? e.g. when you're asking for a basic/traffic service or a CTR transit, it's easy to say you're a PA28 or a C152, but what if you're flying some homebuilt type that few people will have heard of?

Cheers :thumleft:
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By Morten
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1799204
george7378 wrote:1. If I bought or joined a group to fly a permit aircraft, could I put the hours in my PPL logbook (as SEP)? I know you can't do it with microlights, but 'permit to fly' covers a large range of types. How do you know if a given plane is useful for maintaining/building your hours?

Likely. There will be some exceptions which may not count towards SEP hours if you need those , but probably not unless you are thinking of something rather unusual or indeed microlight. Easy way to find out is to look up the relevant aircraft (or type) on G-Info?

george7378 wrote: 2. How do you identify the type to ATC? e.g. when you're asking for a basic/traffic service or a CTR transit, it's easy to say you're a PA28 or a C152, but what if you're flying some homebuilt type that few people will have heard of?

They may be homebuilt but they're still (or at least the vast majority is) of an approved type/design and are known to the ICAO and hence feature on their list of designators which ATSUs should know (or look up if they don't ). It's searchable here: https://www.icao.int/publications/DOC86 ... earch.aspx
I.e. "D11" is a Jodel, "RV10" is a Van's RV 10 "CH7A" is an Aeronca Champ etc.
Whether your average ATSU knows the difference between an ISPT and a SPIT is another question...
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By G-JWTP
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1799206
Hi George,

Simply,

1. Yes. If it has a single piston powered engine and over 450 Kg ( i think)MTOW.
2. Most aircraft have either a type number or name. Our Europa is, funnily enough, a Europa. Its technical 4 letter type is 'EUPA'.

There's a huge amount of information just about to arrive from all directions on this thread!!
Good luck!

G-JWTP
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#1799210
george7378 wrote: .. but what if you're flying some homebuilt type that few people will have heard of?


The likelihood is that it will be a permit type that people (ATSU) have heard of, particularly if you are intending to join a group it will probably be well known around the area in which it is based.

You can always use the type name on the R/T. I have certainly heard "Auster" used frequently, probably as they are so slow the guy at the other end needs to know. (Maybe a bad example, I have no idea if they are LAA yet)

Basically there will be no significant differences from your Cessnas and Pipers other than being cheaper to run and to maintain, faster (probably) and a lot more fun.

Rob P
Last edited by Rob P on Tue Sep 29, 2020 5:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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By nallen
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1799214
george7378 wrote:2. How do you identify the type to ATC? e.g. when you're asking for a basic/traffic service or a CTR transit, it's easy to say you're a PA28 or a C152, but what if you're flying some homebuilt type that few people will have heard of?


I fly an EASA-certified factory-built aircraft that most controllers have never heard of … (there are only two in the country, so I guess they have an excuse). But it's not a problem.
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By leiafee
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1799217
george7378 wrote:2. How do you identify the type to ATC? e.g. when you're asking for a basic/traffic service or a CTR transit, it's easy to say you're a PA28 or a C152, but what if you're flying some homebuilt type that few people will have heard of?


If they don’t know and need to they’ll ask...

“No I am not a helicopter”
“Yes I really am moving this slowly”
:lol:
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#1799222
Hi George. The aeroplanes administered by the LAA on permits to fly are just that - aeroplanes. They are no less aeroplanes than the Cessnas or Pipers you're used to, the only difference is the paperwork is sent to a different address. There is no lower weight limit - there are plently of SEPs administered by the LAA that weigh less than 450KG MTOW. As long as it relies on a wing rather than a rotor for its lift, and it's not a glider or a microlight, you can log the hours towards the maintenance of your SEP rating. AND a recent change in licensing has meant that hours logged in a 3-axis microlight(i.e. looks like an aeroplane and not a lawn mower with a kite on top) count towards the maintenance of an SEP rating.

To give you some idea how inadequate the average CofA'd PA28 is, I fly a Vans RV-8. I cruise at 160 knots. I climb at 1800 fpm, maybe more, I'm not sure because it all happens so fast. I can fly upside down if the mood takes me. I can carry two very fat blokes and a lot of luggage and fuel and still go at 160 knots. I can win an aerobatic competition in the Midlands in the afternoon celebrate my win the same evening in the Dordogne. I can do all this on £80/hour. Pretty neat eh?
Last edited by Maxthelion on Tue Sep 29, 2020 6:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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By cockney steve
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1799231
Just to complicate things. Some light 3-axis aircraft can be either Microlight, or LAA Permit. EG, one model, if it has a normal mechanical fuel-pump, is a Microlight, administered and Permitted by BMAA. Add an electric fuel-pump and you have a "group A" (or whatever the current designation is) administered and permitted by LAA. Confused yet?

3-axis F.W MICROLIGHT hours can now count towards keeping certain licences validated. Not sure of the percentage allowable, etc.

The weight- limit for Microlights is due to increase to 600Kg. This is a game-changer and further blurs the line between BMAA and LAA jurisdictions,

Both the above organisations allow considerable scope to self-build and maintain you are sensible to consult the engineering dept. of the one who administers your aircraft, before doing anything. They will point you to an inspector who will guide, check and sign-off your work.

Certain mods have been done before, minor ones are subject to a £25? fee in BMAA-land.
I do not hold a pilot's licence, so I'm afraid I can only give a rough outline. Permit is hugely cheaper than Cof A If you've mechanical aptitude and are willing to get your hands dirty, you'll save a fortune on labour. Parts that are fit for purpose are also likely to be vastly cheaper if not "certified".
HTH. :thumright:
Last edited by cockney steve on Tue Sep 29, 2020 11:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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#1799245
Wow, thanks for all the great info everyone, it sounds like LAA is a whole other world that I just haven't had the chance to see yet. I've never flown a plane newer than about 1985, so it makes sense that performance has moved on a bit in the stuff people are building now!

I like the idea of getting involved with maintenance too - I do work and servicing on my car, so I've got a decent handle on mechanics and like getting my hands dirty, especially to save cash, haha!

I'm moving down near Oxford soon and would really like to get involved in a group rather than just renting from flight schools indefinitely. Will keep an eye on the local scene :D

Finbarr Saunders wrote:Not sure where the "random" part comes in? :?:


Because the questions are unrelated...
#1799247
If you're already handy with the spanners when applied to your car, you'll find aeroplanes easy. Aeroplane engines come at a convenient height to work on and with the cowlings removed the access is a revelation compared to cars. Most of the rest of the airframe is pretty easy and simple for most user maintenance most of the time, apart from when you need to get under/behind the panel, and then it can be just as bad as most cars. On the whole though, light aircraft are relatively simple machines to maintain. It's the building of them that requires a craftsman.
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