Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
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#1802257
Tim Dawson wrote:If we are lucky enough to get a comprehensive redesign of airspace in SE England I don't think there's any reason they should do it using ground features. How many people are actually flying like that these days?


because approved navigation systems are either too expensive or impractical to fit in many light aircraft.
#1802258
Sooty25 wrote:because approved navigation systems are either too expensive or impractical to fit in many light aircraft.


As far as i know approved VFR GPSes are thing of the past, it's either IFR navigator (430, 750 or alternatives from avidyne) that are worse then useless when flying VFR or handheld unit (most likely tablet with skydemon).
#1802259
JodelDavo wrote:
Easy following a line when all the electronics are working, but once the batteries run out or it gets too hot, what are they going to do then? Party line or not, pilots have to know how to navigate by using a chart and compass as well as be able to follow a magenta line.. Students are taught how to use GPS, but they need to know how to navigate by chart first! Isn't that what Ex18 is all about?

(and yes, I use Skydemon 75% of the time, but I can still nav by chart and compass because that's how I was taught).


Sure, but it's a matter of primacy, isn't it?

Of course a pilot needs to be able to find his way with nothing but a chart, compass and stop-watch. But is that his primary means of navigation or, as I think you and I agree, his reversionary means?
#1802266
David Wood wrote:Of course a pilot needs to be able to find his way with nothing but a chart, compass and stop-watch. But is that his primary means of navigation or, as I think you and I agree, his reversionary means?

The answer seems a given. However, interestingly, I am at this time considering it as the primary means.

The weather looks flyable during the coming week. I am contemplating a particular destination within areas subject to GPS jamming. My instinct tells me to plan to fly ded reckoning as primary method to avoid potential confusion. :D

Image
#1802283
Miscellaneous wrote:
David Wood wrote:Of course a pilot needs to be able to find his way with nothing but a chart, compass and stop-watch. But is that his primary means of navigation or, as I think you and I agree, his reversionary means?

The answer seems a given. However, interestingly, I am at this time considering it as the primary means.

The weather looks flyable during the coming week. I am contemplating a particular destination within areas subject to GPS jamming. My instinct tells me to plan to fly ded reckoning as primary method to avoid potential confusion. :D

Image


Or you could ring the number on the Notam for info:

The last time there was a Notam for a week's jamming , involving our strip, I phoned early on the Tuesday afternoon (1400hrs)to be told 'Oh the Jamming's all over for the week, they've all gone home'.....

Peter :lol:
#1802284
PeteSpencer wrote:Or you could ring the number on the Notam for info:

The last time there was a Notam for a week's jamming , involving our strip, I phoned early on the Tuesday afternoon (1400hrs)to be told 'Oh the Jamming's all over for the week, they've all gone home'.....

Surely could and it may be worth the call regardless. However I am fairly confident they will be jamming. In fact there may be more than just GPS jamming to consider. Close inspection of NOTAMs a must. :wink:

NOTIFICATION OF GNSS JAMMING TRIALS PART OF MILITARY EXERCISE NAVWAR SCOTLAND (BUTEC RANGE – RAASAY INNER SOUND) 12 OCTOBER – 16 OCTOBER
#1802308
Pete L wrote:The most obvious example I have to hand is the W of the Luton Zone - for most of it, the A41 and the Euston Line are outside of it - except the SW corner. For some completely unrelated reason that corner is also an infringement hotspot.

But the Euston line cuts through the SW corner of the Luton CTR, and the A41 is right on the corner, so I'd suggest the reason for infringements is because people use those and forget the CTR down to the surface.

I remember years ago (very early GPS days) making the comment about the CTA to the W of Luton, having no landmarks for reference... plus ca change.
#1802348
Pete L wrote:..

I did wonder with EC and GPS why windows on light aircraft were still necessary for VFR. :D



Forward windows have been unnecessary in some types for a while. :)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:ComperSwift.JPG

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Sp ... _Louis.jpg
#1802373
There is a very informative article in a Pilot magazine not far from here on this topic. It is refreshing to see someone willing to confront the issue head on and well worth a read for those that might be interested.
#1802455
JodelDavo wrote:Easy following a line when all the electronics are working, but once the batteries run out or it gets too hot, what are they going to do then? Party line or not, pilots have to know how to navigate by using a chart and compass as well as be able to follow a magenta line.


I carry a backup device instead. I could use a chart and compass if I had to, but suddenly switching to that while flying solo would be dangerous in my opinion because I wouldn't be able to do it quickly while also maintaining a lookout. Unless I plan to use a chart in advance, but a significant benefit in using a moving map would be lost (time saved in planning, and being able to wander around without so much attention to heading, landmarks, timing, etc).

If my main moving map fails and my backup device also fails, I intend to call a local ATSU or D&D for help immediately.

The other day my main moving map did fail (only a loss of location due to loose power connection to PilotAware). I recalled where I was when I last looked, held heading and altitude, and had my backup (my phone) running within a minute. Then I dealt with getting power back to the PilotAware. I was close to a class D boundary at the time. Had I had any doubt, I would have probably called them before dealing with the backup.

My point is that the ability to fly with a chart and compass isn't really relevant!
flybymike liked this
#1802457
I practiced using SkyDemon on the tablet the other day in flight, in Planning mode to simulate a GPS signal failure.

Of course, the airspace, ground features* and planning lines were all still there - and so I started from my last known position and located myself using classic techniques. I carried on for a couple of turning points before reverting to 'Fly' mode.

The workload went up a lot, naturally, but it was do-able.

(If the tablet itself had failed, I have the phone as backup of course).


*I configure SD with roads, rivers and railways selected for just that eventuality. ('Terrain and Surface Features', under 'Mapping')
JonathanB, David Wood, patowalker and 1 others liked this
#1802478
jacekowski wrote:
Sooty25 wrote:because approved navigation systems are either too expensive or impractical to fit in many light aircraft.


As far as i know approved VFR GPSes are thing of the past, it's either IFR navigator (430, 750 or alternatives from avidyne) that are worse then useless when flying VFR or handheld unit (most likely tablet with skydemon).


Okay, lets downgrade that to dedicated hardware. However good the App is, it still has to deal with variable quality hardware, conflict from other Apps and conflict from operating system updates.
#1802494
Dave W wrote:I practiced using SkyDemon on the tablet the other day in flight, in Planning mode to simulate a GPS signal failure.


That's a good idea. Why didn't I think of that? (Oh you will, sir. You will... :lol: ).

I've started feeding the use of moving maps into LPCs because so many times I get asked by the candidate "how do you want me to plan and fly the nav section?" My answer is always, "How do you usually do it?" It seems to me that, especially in this Infringement sensitive world, the core requirement is make sure that the candidate is navigating competently and safely with due regard to the risks and potential problems of whatever technique he/she uses.
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