Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
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By johnm
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1836410
The only way to minimise THE IMPACT OF infringements (which is what matters) is for EVERYBODY to be part of the known environment. So listening squawks with Mode S as a minimum with the opportunity of engagement with an adequate ATS system in a well designed airspace structure.

Under those circumstances ATCOs can call any aircraft deemed at risk of infringing and prevent impact.

CAIT and assuming aircraft with no Mode C output are below airspace is frankly just nuts. :roll:
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By skydriller
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1836413
johnm wrote: So listening squawks with Mode S as a minimum


Sorry but to me "listening squawk" = "chocolate teapot"

johnm wrote:the opportunity of engagement with an adequate ATS system in a well designed airspace structure.


This is what is needed, but I cant see it ever happening when private profit first companies control the airspace.

Regards, SD..
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By johnm
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1836423
@skydriller I have some sympathy with your view but there are those who don't wish to engage with ATC but if their position, altitude and call sign are known and they are on frequency, the opportunity for ATC to act is still available.
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By ThePipster
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1836459
@skydriller You are based in France I believe? My experience of French airspace and its management has been almost entirely positive. Do you think that it is the state ownership of the ATS services or the attitude of the people that work there that set it apart from our experience here in the UK?

Pipster
#1836469
Given that a "basic service" is a pretty pointless exercise, listening squawks serve the valuable purpose of cutting out at least some of the frequency blocking life stories, so in my opinion do not fall into the cocoa-based domestic furnishings category, in the UK at least.

Rob P
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By skydriller
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1836479
@ThePipster I think its the organisation of FIS in France thats the main difference, which when mentioned to those in the UK as a model, is countered by saying "well, yes, thats because its all nationalised, not private companies like the UK"...

The French FIS regions are divided into distinct areas in France (clearly marked on the map) and in most cases, the FIS controller you talk to is the same guy, or sat next to the guy, that is controlling the Class A/C/D of the big airport in the FIS area it is located. What this means is that as you are flying around, they already know who you are and what you are doing, so its as if the airspace boundary isnt there, you will never hear "remain clear of controlled airspace" and if you clip the base of airspace and they have an inbound above the worst that happens is "F-ABCD, confirm alt? Traffic inbound above". When it comes to restricted areas, they know if its "active" and if not you stay with the FIS, if active you contact the military controller to negotiate entry. Its not always "joined up" but they will tell you who to call when you go from one FIS region to the next. The good thing is that hough of course you have those "non radio" or not talking to anyone, or in an aerodrome circuit, if you are talking in one FIS region, everyone is talking to the same guy...

Regards, SD..
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#1836485
This is how I see a replacement infringement course working.

Initial training of Instructors and Examiners

Instructors and Examiners would “attend” an accreditation course to enable them to deliver infringement courses. This would cost a similar or lower amount to the present course delivered to pilots. Development of the course could be funded by the CAA and delivered by GASCo, or another contractor, as a webinar. It could be part funded by the instructors / examiners.

The aim would be to give a spread of accredited instructors / examiners around the country and to address the claim that in the past the standards were inconsistent. Potentially, refresher courses could be held every so many years.

Pilots who infringe

Pilots who infringe would receive a letter from the CAA asking them to make an appointment with an accredited instructor / examiner within say two weeks and notifying the CAA the appointment had been made. The CAA might then provide further details of the infringement to the instructor / examiner.

Pilot and instructor / examiner would meet on a one-to-one basis and review the specific events that resulted in the infringement and discuss the various techniques for avoiding infringing in future.

The instructor / examiner would complete a response form to the CAA, which might include a recommendation as to whether in some cases further re-training is required.

I would envisage the instructor / examiner review would be around two to three hours, and the cost would be met by the pilot.

A prescribed approach (there would be more detail than I have set out as to the matters which would by necessity be covered), with a system of accreditation and the potential for audit has not to my knowledge been tried before.

Advantages: Some money would be delivered directly back to the training environment. Instructors / examiners would be even better equipped to mitigate infringements in their everyday training, the course would address the specific needs of the pilot rather than a single approach fits all, there would be far greater freedom to depart from a standard format. For example, if a pilot had never used Sky Demon this could be examined in depth, and further and separate tuition arranged. Meetings could be arranged quickly while the event was fresh in the pilot’s mind. While not prescriptive, the pilot and instructor / examiner could agree a flight review would be helpful as a separate matter.

Disadvantages: potentially the lack of consistency, financial considerations in terms of cost reward to the instructors / examiners.

As to the more general causes of infringement, I see changes to airspace and its governance as equally important to reducing the risk in the first place, but we know there is no perfect solution at a realistic cost. Pilots will always infringe as we know from other countries with much better organised airspace than or own, and with far better ATC support. Realistically, and sadly, I see little deliverance of airspace changes and so we should concentrate on the art of the possible.

However, I also believe this is a far better solution because it places responsibility within our own community and with those at the coal face delivering flight training day in, day out, rather than organisations which may well come and go. It improves the overall awareness of infringement mitigation within the training community which works with pilots day in, day out. It localises the re-training, by which I mean an awful lot of pilots tend to fly in the same area and don’t go hundreds of miles. (I know some do). Therefore, pilots based in the South and operating in busy and constrained airspace, can be retrained with the correct focus for their immediate needs, compared and contrasted with a pilot operating in the highlands of Scotland. Finally, examiners, instructors and high hour instrument pilots for example who may well have infringed for very different and specific reasons compared with the newly qualified pilot, will not sit through hours of material which is almost certainly neither relevant or helpful, but as the one fits all course we have, is unavoidable.

Of course the devil is in the detail, and this does not address the detail. :lol:
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#1836494
flybymike wrote:Are instructors and examiners who have infringed (some of them more than once) by making exactly the same mistakes as the rest of us, excluded from accreditation? :wink:


All joking aside, probably encouraged. :D

They always use to say in the US the best entrepreneurs have been bust at least once. :D

At least they will not be like some of these types we have all come across, all theory and no kn****** or pants. :lol:
#1836501
And we end up back to demanding the use of non approved Apps on uncontrolled hardware.

Maybe it would be better to insist on type approved GNSS with compulsory autopilot installations and NATS pre-approved flight plans, that would fix it.
#1836561
johnm wrote:CAIT and assuming aircraft with no Mode C output are below airspace is frankly just nuts. :roll:


Speaking as one of the very few people around here who have actually worked with CAIT, I always thought it (and deemed separations) were quite useful really.

But, don’t mind me, just briefly passing through.
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By johnm
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1836562
Mike Tango wrote:
johnm wrote:CAIT and assuming aircraft with no Mode C output are below airspace is frankly just nuts. :roll:


Speaking as one of the very few people around here who have actually worked with CAIT, I always thought it (and deemed separations) were quite useful really.

But, don’t mind me, just briefly passing through.


Aspirins for appendicitis says “dumped at Detling” :roll:
#1836566
I'll repeat the point I made - oh - forty pages ago.

A two hour debrief with an instructor would make bu66er all difference to my propensity to infringe in the future, nor would it highlight any lessons from the twice I got caught in the past. And I think the same is true for most people. But punishment is deserved and does focus the mind. Being asked to do an evening shift in a soup kitchen would be just as effective, more socially useful and wouldn't require the expense of setting up a pointless training course.
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By Dave W
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1836568
matthew_w100 wrote:But punishment is deserved and does focus the mind.

Assuming guilt and no contributory factors from other sources than the pilot.

Which is quite a blanket assumption, especially given a less than stellar investigatory process (IME).

Now, once again: None of my views, which are based on what I have seen directly, minimise in any way the potential seriousness of infringements or the need to expend whatever effort is effective and necessary to minimise them.
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