Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
By Bill McCarthy
#1796497
Try bringing a yacht or motor cruiser alongside at Faslane - you would very quickly be looking down the barrels of several guns. On the other hand, you would not get within a couple of hundred yards of the jetty.
User avatar
By kanga
#1796498
Even in the 'old days', it seemed very much to depend on attitude of Station Commander. These might be any of:

a. strongly pro/anti visiting GA, or
b. uninterested, and leaving the decision to some subordinate with other Station-wide primary responsibility, eg OC Ops, SATCO, .. who might be pro/anti; or
c. leaving it to CFI of resident AEF/UAS or RAF Flying Club if there was one, subject to some condition eg local flight with a resident civil/military FI immediately after arrival to have Local Flying Area and departure/arrival procedures demonstrated; or
d. if a contractor eg SERCO had taken over Visiting Aircraft Section, inclined to leave it to them in case any decision trod on the terms of the VAS contract
e. or, sometimes, impossible to find anyone officially empowered to give/refuse permission

I recall one FJ Station (Operational Squadrons and OCU) where our Air Cadets had 3 Summer Camps over a few years. Twice I asked to fly in for the week. Staish had delegated to SATCO, who said 'no way'. Third time, after change of Staish to Group Captain FJ pilot who was also civilian Examiner with own aerobatic SEP who had also arranged Station's first ever fly-in MCASD, I asked again.. "Sure, fill your boots; Gliding Club with tug will be operating from grass by West end of [long] runway; make blind calls on their Gliding Common frequency and land at East end, taxi to park outside Cadets' portakabin billets on an old Dispersal. During the week, fly as much as you want in the evenings after normal Operations have stopped. Check with ATC if you want to fly during the day"

When I have been at a VAS run by SERCO, the SERCO staff themselves (mostly ex-Service) couldn't have been friendlier or more helpful.
MikeB liked this
By Ibra
#1796520
Bill McCarthy wrote:Try bringing a yacht or motor cruiser alongside at Faslane - you would very quickly be looking down the barrels of several guns. On the other hand, you would not get within a couple of hundred yards of the jetty.


It's a runway and guess what? it is used to land aeroplanes :thumleft:

If something special with it it will be NO in the AIP, otherwise most of RAF runways do accept visiting civilian aircrafts in their mil AIP or even operate gliders or power aeroclub on weekends, the caveat is usually the conditions: PPR, MoD level insurance, local contact/escort on the day

It could be that the ultimate call is station commander, most likely depending on his mood on visiting GA aircraft or if he like you specifically :lol:

Just a note RAF landings don't come cheap, maybe grass ones like Halton & Henlow are in 30£, the rest of tarmacs are +60£ to 200£ range and some only accept paper check book :lol:

Most places that runs gliding on weekends are reluctant to take a SEP but they may do for TMG, but that is the same story with any gliding airfield really...
By Kestrel19
#1796529
Most places that runs gliding on weekends are reluctant to take a SEP but they may do for TMG, but that is the same story with any gliding airfield really...



In many cases that’s planning constraints rather than the will of the club. There are many clubs I know of that would allow SEP quite happily but can’t because of the neighbours.
There are some clubs reduced to winch only operations by restrictions like this and others where only the tug is permitted (and the locals take careful note of what the tug looks like and complain about any aircraft that’s not it!!)
Ibra liked this
User avatar
By James Chan
#1796539
Does anyone remember the good old days when you used to be able to PPR (with all the compliance etc) And get PPR to an RAF airfield?


I'm afraid I would have been too young to know that.

I don't know what the policy is these days, but it makes sense for publicly-funded MOD aerodromes to allow reasonable access as routine to various forms of civilian traffic, if there isn't an overriding defense or operational need.

The main problem I suspect is that these needs can "suddenly happen", and so access could suddenly be refused for a time window.

Defense/operational needs aside, some places like RAF Northolt have been known to charge the earth for light aircraft to land and its not clear why they do so.

Even if the prices were reasonable, it could be uncomfortable to be landing at a place where, if someone accidentally misplaced your access/landing paperwork, to be greeted by a dozen armed officers strip searching you and your aircraft and interrogated over what you're carrying.

Perhaps it makes sense for the DfT/Grant Shapps to form a policy and have a chat with the MOD/Ben Wallace to see what can be done.

It would be nice to have a clear and consistent approach to this.
User avatar
By Miscellaneous
#1796540
Bill McCarthy wrote:On the other hand, you would not get within a couple of hundred yards of the jetty.

Having played to see how close we could get in a boat and kayaks I can second that. :lol:
User avatar
By Rob P
#1796552
Miscellaneous wrote:And here was me thinking not only did Benbecula have the right to that particular accolade, but that is was unsurpassable. :lol:


You are totally correct. The human standard of welcome was on a par, though I didn't see any staff actually running away to avoid us at Woodvale, but nature conspires to award the accolade of worst ever to Benbecula since there was some sunlight at Woodvale as opposed to the deluge that constituted 'weather' at the champion venue.

My apologies to Woodvale

@chevvron I am afraid I have no idea of the current status of Woodvale, you don't really think I'd venture back do you? :lol:

Rob P
Miscellaneous liked this
By dall1234
#1796572
Cosford still welcome visitors. OK there's a bit of protocol, crown indemnity + 24hrs advance PPR. Yes there's a landing fee, but free entry to one of the best museums in the country in my opinion.
User avatar
By Rob P
#1796576
dall1234 wrote:Cosford still welcome visitors.


As long as it isn't a weekend I understand?

Rob P
Ibra liked this
User avatar
By gasman
#1796584
dall1234 wrote:Cosford still welcome visitors. OK there's a bit of protocol, crown indemnity + 24hrs advance PPR. Yes there's a landing fee, but free entry to one of the best museums in the country in my opinion.


As I’ve said before its so unfortunate that RAF Cosford doesn’t accept fly-in visitors for the majority of the week.
The last time I flew in I was telephoned and asked to depart because flying had finished for the day - it was 3pm.

With the right attitude Cosford could easily become the “Duxford of the North”.
skydriller liked this
By chevvron
#1796588
Miscellaneous wrote:
Bill McCarthy wrote:On the other hand, you would not get within a couple of hundred yards of the jetty.

Having played to see how close we could get in a boat and kayaks I can second that. :lol:

I once went out on Gibraltar Bay in a private boat to do some dolphin spotting. There was a 'nuke' sitting just outsied the harbour walls with 2 x fleet tenders nearby; every time we tried to get close to the sub, one of the tenders would cut across our bows.
User avatar
By Pete L
#1796589
gasman wrote:
dall1234 wrote:Cosford still welcome visitors. OK there's a bit of protocol, crown indemnity + 24hrs advance PPR. Yes there's a landing fee, but free entry to one of the best museums in the country in my opinion.


As I’ve said before its so unfortunate that RAF Cosford doesn’t accept fly-in visitors for the majority of the week.
The last time I flew in I was telephoned and asked to depart because flying had finished for the day - it was 3pm.

With the right attitude Cosford could easily become the “Duxford of the North”.


ATC immensely helpful when it is open.
By chevvron
#1796590
oakworth wrote:Didn’t know it had ever been simple to PPR into a military site. When I was serving I used to fly my Cessna to meetings, but always had to land nearby. Seem to remember the issue in those days was the level of insurance required.

When I first went to Farnborough in '74, the attitude to civilian aircraft (apart from some selected operators) was quite paranoid.
Any request from a civvy which hadn't booked had to be referred to OC Flying but to get to him you had to first explain to Adj Flying.
He would simply say 'no, send him to Blackbushe'.
Tell him the weather wasn't good enough and he would say 'send him to Gatwick'.
This policy didn't change until that person (ex RAF aircrew who had been demobbed on medical grounds then re-employed as a civilian) retired (late '80s) by which time we were accepting civil aircraft anyway.
One exception though was in July 1982, when the Director RAE, an ex civil test pilot, allowed 80 odd participants in the Moth Rally to land at Farnborough one sunday; I don't think they were charged landing fees either but that wasn't anything to do with us in ATC apart from the fact I could have made a fortune by charging for stamping and signing pilot's log books to prove they really had landed at Farnborough 8)
oakworth liked this
User avatar
By PeteSpencer
#1796592
gasman wrote:
dall1234 wrote:Cosford still welcome visitors. OK there's a bit of protocol, crown indemnity + 24hrs advance PPR. Yes there's a landing fee, but free entry to one of the best museums in the country in my opinion.


As I’ve said before its so unfortunate that RAF Cosford doesn’t accept fly-in visitors for the majority of the week.
The last time I flew in I was telephoned and asked to depart because flying had finished for the day - it was 3pm.

With the right attitude Cosford could easily become the “Duxford of the North”.


Cosford's fine if you play by their rules: Why wouldn't you?

It's ages since I went with No 1 Grandson (Dornier was still steaming away in wet poly tent). but the ladies in the reception couldn't have been more helpful especially when we dropped that grandson was in the air cadets.

Not sure it could ever become the Duxford of the North, but they did have one better idea than Duxford and that is white kerbing around all the indoor exhibits rather than tatty rope and posts which keep getting pulled over by visitors.

Good practice from E Anglia too , picking the way round B'Ham and E Mids CTAs.

Peter