Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
By Crash one
#1796594
PeteSpencer wrote:@Crash one
I see you avoided (10) :roll:


Perhaps I was looking the wrong way :D
Either way my opinion is worth what you paid for it.
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By Rob L
#1796620
PeteSpencer wrote:IMHO there’s something slightly alien in rewarding a trainee for making a mistake which could have had fatal consequences .

But I’d never dream of saying this on the studes’ forum......

Peter :roll:


An education is better than a reward. I'm fairly convinced the errant Student was unaware.

Rob
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By Rob L
#1796623
Bill McCarthy wrote:I wonder how he parks his car ?


When one first learns to drive, it is not unknown for an occasional "bump" in the supermarket car park. I hit two cars very early in my car driving career.

That's all this is. I do understand the difference, and the possible more serious consequences in the aviation context, but if our anonymous student had realised (and by the nature of the very minor damage I doubt he or she did) then I think, in my opinion, we should offer the benefit of doubt, and give the Student some education in return.

Rob
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By PeteSpencer
#1796628
Sort of agree but it's not for us to offer education: That very firmly rests in his school's camp.

Neither do I think he would be wise to look on here to seek that education.

: After all this is not the 'protected ' studes' forum.

I bet a bob he's had the education already>
Not much more to say on here.

Peter :wink:
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By Rob L
#1796639
PeteSpencer wrote:Sort of agree but it's not for us to offer education: That very firmly rests in his school's camp.

Neither do I think he would be wise to look on here to seek that education.

: After all this is not the 'protected ' studes' forum.

I bet a bob he's had the education already>
Not much more to say on here.

Peter :wink:


It's up to all of us to offer education, Peter (in all walks of life).
Rob
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By Kemble Pitts
#1796720
Crash one wrote:
Kemble Pitts wrote:
Crash one wrote:Righteousness is a wonderful thing when it’s on your side, isn’t it?


Just musing, but if Righteousness was not on your side, would it then be Lefteousness...

More tea vicar?


Normal response on here. When you realise you are wrong, take the pi$$!


Bit unfair, that was my first and only input to the discussion... :roll: :(
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By Paul_Sengupta
#1796732
It may be neither education nor reward. Back in the day when I used to hang around the place in Florida a fair bit, if a student became dejected for any reason, possibly a test fail, possibly just not "getting" landing, I'd get them, usually two at a time, in an aeroplane, as passenger, and fly off for lunch somewhere. This way they could see the big picture, see why they were doing this, see that real world flying could be relaxing and not a constant slog.

Crash one wrote:Normal response on here. When you realise you are wrong, take the pi$$!


Hey, right or wrong, I don't care, taking the p!$$ is the British way!
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By Crash one
#1796744
Kemble Pitts wrote:
Crash one wrote:
Kemble Pitts wrote:
Just musing, but if Righteousness was not on your side, would it then be Lefteousness...

More tea vicar?


Normal response on here. When you realise you are wrong, take the pi$$!


Bit unfair, that was my first and only input to the discussion... :roll: :(


My apologies.
I tend to generalise on these things, and often that’s what happens, people grab on one sentence and take the pi$$ over it.
Sorry. :(
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By Bill McCarthy
#1796763
All very forgiving thus far, but this student was away from his home airfield on a cross country exercise (?) and therefore well into the syllabus and had some brief on safe handling. “Could have been looking the other way” is not an excuse, and if in such a tight spot surely he would have been instructed to shut down and take the safe route out of the situation manually - or seek assistance/lookout. I am not so forgiving in this instance. Would those in support be so tolerant if their aircraft was subject to some hangar rash - a tear in fabric say, and to notice tufts of said fabric on an wing tip of another aircraft - oh that was possibly done by a student pilot - we will slap his wrist and tell him to be more careful next time.
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By Dave W
#1796765
Well, he was/is a student.

There is Good Practice, and there is What A Student Knows. The two things don't always overlap.

It was a mistake with serious consequences, and many of us would indeed be livid if it happened to our own aircraft.

But what action would you propose? Nowadays keel-hauling is seen as a sub-optimal teaching technique.

As I see it from this thread, the humane proposal to offer the chap a flight was not as a reward (of course); it was a suggested means of support to perhaps avoid him leaving GA flying altogether. It was noted that other students are known to have done that after a much less significant error.
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By rdfb
#1796770
Bill McCarthy wrote:...if in such a tight spot surely he would have been instructed to shut down and take the safe route out of the situation manually - or seek assistance/lookout. I am not so forgiving in this instance.


You assume that the student had the experience to judge that it was a tight spot. I don't think that's a fair assumption.

I don't know the specifics of this particular case, but I can imagine a scenario where a student based somewhere where there's plenty of taxiing space has little experience at all taxiing in tight spaces, and so is not able to recognise the situation when it's appropriate to shut down. Especially if at a foreign aerodrome, if the situation seems to be "the norm", everyone else seems to be managing just fine, you're holding up a bunch of people behind you, you're not even sure how to explain what you need because the R/T for that is something that you haven't practiced, and this situation didn't arise when you practiced with your instructor the first time round.

It is very easy for an experienced pilot to say what one should do because you're using your experience to recognise is appropriate and you know that others are likely to agree that your chosen course of action is a reasonable one. It really difficult when you're new to something to stick your neck out that, for fear that the option that you're considering won't be considered reasonable afterwards.

I don't know if any of my speculation above applied in this case. But neither do you. Unless you know otherwise, I don't think it's appropriate to be berating people. The important thing is that people take responsibility for their mistakes. Berating them for making mistakes in the first place serves no useful purpose.
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By lobstaboy
#1796771
Dave W wrote:Well, he was/is a student.

There is Good Practice, and there is What A Student Knows. The two things don't always overlap.

It was a mistake with serious consequences...



Yes indeed. And I would venture to suggest that it is the responsibility of the instructor who authorized the solo cross country to ensure that What the Student Knows includes sufficient Good Practice (aka Airmanship) to cover the sort of eventualities likely to be encountered.

So whilst this was a serious error on behalf of the student IMHO the instructor shares some of the responsibility for poor judgement.

I do feel sorry for the student and hope it becomes a positive learning experience, not a negative one. We've all done stupid things - on one of my early cross country flights I forgot to turn the radio on and bumbled about on the ground getting as far as the active runway ready for take off before I began to wonder why I wasn't getting any replies from the A/G operator (Leicester, in case you're wondering)
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By PeteSpencer
#1796785
Sir Morley Steven wrote:A few on here clearly without sin!


I do adore your put-down one-liners @Sir Morley Steven .

More please.

Peter :lol:
By Crash one
#1796789
Perhaps we should have a “Confessional thread”. What mistakes have you made?