[Dave W]

Perhaps we should have a “Confessional thread”.

There's whole forum for that. It Happened to Me

[flyingearly]

Well, he was/is a student.

There is Good Practice, and there is What A Student Knows. The two things don't always overlap.

It was a mistake with serious consequences...

Yes indeed. And I would venture to suggest that it is the responsibility of the instructor who authorized the solo cross country to ensure that What the Student Knows includes sufficient Good Practice (aka Airmanship) to cover the sort of eventualities likely to be encountered.

So whilst this was a serious error on behalf of the student IMHO the instructor shares some of the responsibility for poor judgement.

I do feel sorry for the student and hope it becomes a positive learning experience, not a negative one. We've all done stupid things - on one of my early cross country flights I forgot to turn the radio on and bumbled about on the ground getting as far as the active runway ready for take off before I began to wonder why I wasn't getting any replies from the A/G operator (Leicester, in case you're wondering)

I've been following this thread and keep getting tempted to post, but this specific post is the prompt for me to share some thoughts!

Not very long ago, I was a student - and a terrible one at first - and I've been trying to empathise what I would have done in that situation.

What worries me here is that the assumption has been made - probably correctly and fairly - that the student didn't realise what they had done. In which case, much of this thread still stands.

But actually, isn't there a possibility that they did notice what they had done, in which case the post I'm quoting above becomes very relevant?

As fas as I'm aware, there is absolutely nothing on any syllabus anywhere that talks about just culture, or how to handle mistakes, or what to do if something like this happens. I'm pretty confident there's something in the air law module about MOR, but not about the day-to-day, bread-and-butter screw-ups like this.

As I said, I'm sure this was an innocent error and that the student didn't notice. But - being horribly honest with you - if I was a student and I did notice that I have clipped another aircraft slightly, I'm not sure I would have known what to do. In fact, in the absence of any training on 'culture', I'm not sure I would have confessed or even known how to 'fess up.

Amidst the panic of what I'd done, coupled with the original stress of needing to get my aircraft out of a tight parking spot (think of how stressful a 3-point turn was the first time you were learning to drive!), coupled with no-one around, it would be very easy for a student just to ignore it and hope that no-one noticed.

This is entirely wrong, of course, but we live in the real world and we don't all behave honestly at the best of times, no matter how hard we try. The number of times I've got back to my car at in the supermarket car park and someones left a tiny scrape as they pulled out says to me that human nature is to deny all knowledge unless you're either highly virtuous or faced with overwhelming evidence!

What I think this says therefore is actually 2 things:

1) it was an innocent mistake that the student didn't notice, OR
2) the student did notice, but our collective training/syllabus didn't equip the student with the skills they needed to handle that situation correctly

Either way it's not the student's 'fault', but we overlook the second point at peril.

To the point about whether it's a 'reward' for taking the student up flying, if we got point (2) right then you wouldn't need it, because the student wouldn't be so mortified if they understood that we all make mistakes, it's no big deal and that at the end of the day everything can be sorted with a bit of time and money. Of my flying friends, one's an EZY captain who took out one of Shoreham's taxi edge lights in his PPL; another twonked a Redhill taxi light also. If we didn't make the prospect of mistakes so terrifying, I believe standards would be so better.

Think of how that principle applies across our whole flying skillset. How many times on here have people talking about the fear of busting airspace, or the avoidance of Class D, or avoiding areas covered by NOTAM, or not overflying XYZ? It would seem to me - as a new pilot taking my first steps - that the whole hobby could do with several layers of fearmongering taking away from it.

Perhaps the syllabus should start right at the beginning with 'what does it mean to be a pilot?' and talk about things like sharing mistakes for learning opportunities etc, then this situation has a very different perspective on it.

Just my 2 cents.

[Dave W]

If we didn't make the prospect of mistakes so terrifying, I believe standards would be so better.

This. Very much this.

And @flyingearly's point is as relevant to social media as it is to the formal training environment.

[Crash one]

flyingearly.
Spot on with that.

[Rob L]

flyingearly makes very valid points for sure (the basest one of which is we have all been students!)

But I'm still going to err on that the subject errant Student did not know at the time (due to MikeB's image) of such a "minor" ground collision).

But he/she surely knows now, from the admission from the Flying School.

If I'm wrong, and the student thought "I could get away with that", then there is still an educational lesson to be taught and learned.

Rob

[Miscellaneous]

2) the student did notice, but our collective training/syllabus didn't equip the student with the skills they needed to handle that situation correctly

Either way it's not the student's 'fault', but we overlook the second point at peril.

Help me out here guys. I'm totally siding with the student on this one, to be honest to the extent I was a little **** at those attacking him. I came on to this thread to ask @MikeB if he felt it a good idea to offer the student a flight and if so did he intend doing so.

However…I find myself sitting here scratching my head wondering if the syllabus really needs to teach students they should not consider it acceptable to knowingly hit another aircraft and fly off ignoring the fact? Really?

Sorry but IMO irrespective of whether 1 or 2 it is most definitely the students 'fault'.

I'm open to being convinced, but wonder where it should stop?

FAOD @flyingearly I think your post does make some good points, I'm just stuck on what I quote above.

[TheFarmer]

Dunno Misc

But the OP was a bit of a ******* for sensationalising something that a learner did and putting it on the World Wide Web.

I wonder if he honks at learner drivers and videoes their mistakes for Facebook ridicule too...

[MikeB]

Hardly sensationalised in my view, and 4 pages of discussion followed so evidently was an item of interest to many.

I thought that was the point of the forums?

[neilmurg]

Thanks @MikeB interesting. You also opened a gate to allow plenty of pontification on the subject, which is a useful construct. Pretentious, moi?

[Crash one]

Obviously it was the students “fault” by inexperience.
If he did know that he had done it and didn’t report it, I would put that down to the fear of the dire consequences that he had been taught about. Everything from airspace busts, entering cloud, runway incursions/excursions, leaving mags on etc etc.
One of my instructors was panicking that I was only 50 ft above the 3000ft matz, worried that it was his licence etc. Another was in a flap as we passed a house 200 yards away during a PFL. Another ripped the yoke out of my hands and dived violently because I dared to touch the whispy cloud base to give myself a few more feet over the granite, which I could clearly see!
Some of them DO instil serious fear of the most minor indiscretion.
That’s the System!

[Miscellaneous]

@Crash one all valid points that may well benefit from a review. However having thought it through I argue it is already covered. The importance of primary control functionality and airframe integrity, the reporting of an accident…all covered. The extent of fear of consequences is absolutely no excuse for fleeing the scene having knowingly caused damage. I remain of the opinion it is possible and excusable this student was unaware. However on the other hand anyone knowingly colliding with an aircraft and leaving should have the book thrown at them. The leaving being the bigger 'crime'.

Trying to shift responsibility to the system and/or instructor is a non starter.

FAOD I am not suggesting you are disagreeing.

Another ripped the yoke out of my hands and dived violently because I dared to touch the whispy cloud base to give myself a few more feet over the granite,

Who's to say there is not more unseen danger lurking in them there clouds than from the granite you could see? Bet you were on a regional too?

[Aeronca Alan]

There but for the grace of God go I.

Over 30 years ago I learned to fly at Blackbushe in Cessna 150s. The aircraft were all neatly parked, well separated in an area marked with centre lines. We had nice taxi ways with no fences close to them. As soon as I got my PPL I started flying AA-5s from Popham, an open grass field. There were no taxiways as such. When taxiing, with my brain a bit overloaded with so much unfamiliarity (grass field, unfamiliar aircraft, low wing ...) I simply forgot that I was taxiing a vehicle with a 30' wingspan! My heart almost stopped ... but fortunately I missed the hedge by inches!

If the student is reading this, please just put it behind you and enjoy your flying. Like me, you're unlikely to ever repeat that mistake.

[Aeronca Alan]

Mike: I am sorry it happened to your aircraft and hope it's now repaired. Understandably, you must have been a bit angry at the time. (In retrospect, perhaps the title is a bit unforgiving?)

[Crash one]

Miscellaneous .
I do agree with you. If he knew he did it, very bad.
The “system” is a separate issue.
What’s the view like out of a PA28 to the right? I flew one once but can’t remember. Awful thing, far too nose heavy, don’t like them. No doubt they are wonderful things and it’s all my fault.
Regional pressure? Absolutely!
Flew with an ex airline pilot and well respected ex instructor the other day. He was driving. Regionals all the way except from five miles short of boundaries, then QNH! Chart, compass and all that junk, remember them?