Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
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By Overflight
#1796988
jacekowski wrote:
Overflight wrote:What have they got to hide?


That is absolutely wrong attitude, I'm not giving you my details because I don't have to and you have no reason to know it.
You should have never asked for my details in first place and therefore i would have no reason to refuse.


Wrong - https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... ct-pegasus

- a person being evasive about passengers, flights or routes
- a person ignoring aviation regulations or filing misleading or false general aviation reports or flight plans


Airfields are expected to help UKBA undertake their role. They rely on airfields to do some of their policing for them. Just as these days you are expected to snitch on your neighbours for having a barbeque with more than six people....

You might not like Big Brother, but it's fact, it's official, it's in writing in Government guidance
By Ibra
#1796990
Overflight wrote:If a GA airfield/handling outfit asks for a copy of the GAR to ensure that it's filed correctly and on time and the pilot/operator refuses to share that information, that would tend to raise awareness of that flight would it not? 'What have they got to hide? '


There is no way you can fly GA to international airports without sharing copies of crew & pax personal details with various airports operations, handlers, customs...but those guys have regulated jobs and hopefully passed some background checks

Now will you happy to share that info with UK airfields with no "licensed staff"? I don't (even in home base where I know the guys by their names and they have been around in the last 10 years :thumleft: )
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By defcribed
#1796992
Overflight wrote:Wrong - https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... ct-pegasus

- a person being evasive about passengers, flights or routes
- a person ignoring aviation regulations or filing misleading or false general aviation reports or flight plans


Airfields are expected to help UKBA undertake their role. They rely on airfields to do some of their policing for them. Just as these days you are expected to snitch on your neighbours for having a barbeque with more than six people....

You might not like Big Brother, but it's fact, it's official, it's in writing in Government guidance


Wrong.

Declining to provide personal information on yourself and others to a person or organisation who has no right nor reason to see it is not:

...being evasive about passengers, flights or routes

nor is it

...ignoring aviation regulations or filing misleading or false general aviation reports or flight plans
User avatar
By Dave W
#1796995
@Overflight, @defcribed is absolutely correct: Both in his post above and in his post on the previous page where he said:
defcribed wrote:As ever, that shows that there are basically two methodologies for deciding what a piece of text means.

The first methodology is to decide straight away what you think it means, or would like it to mean, or what someone tells you it means, and stick to that. :roll:

The second is to actually read the sentence carefully and use powers of comprehension and knowledge of the meanings of words to deduce the actual, literal meaning.

It's blunt, but it's true.

Your Project Pegasus quote absolutely does not mean what you think it does.[/Inigo Montaya]
By Freeflight
#1797002
Back to the original thread starter - the online GAR filing portal is rubbish and unreliable and therefore we have to resort to paper, scanning, files and e-mail, as always which is a pain in the proverbial in this smartphone/tablet-based world. Border Force or Border Agency or UK Visa & Immigration, HMRC - whatever on earth they are supposed to be this week, have got to have an App-based system, all platform compatible, that actually works, all the blinking time. Needless to say, their record on IT is not necessarily 'world-beating', shall we get Baroness Harding on the case?!
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By VRB_20kt
#1797026
Dave W wrote:Doesn't matter if it sensitive or not. (@patowalker did not use that word.)

The airport has no requirement for it.


Dave's spot on. This is at the very heart of GDPR and for an airport to use data acquired outside of its remit is potentially unlawful.
#1797076
Oldfart wrote:Why are we bothering with this rubbish Portal? I use Skydemon, simple and works every time.


Because as I said on the other GAR thread a week or so ago, this is one thing on the two occasions Ive needed it, that did NOT work in Skydemon... but the govt portal worked just fine.

And as for the other bolleaux on here this last couple of pages about sending your GAR to the destination airfield, what tosh!!!
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By James Chan
#1797147
Regardless of what people here think is right or wrong, I presume some places like Oxford have already been asking pilots for GAR forms, and have received them without issue.

It's a bit like airports asking pilots for mandatory telephone PPR, mandatory handling, or mandatory hi-vis jackets.

If the majority of customers don't voice personal data sensitivity issues, then it is assumed it must be okay and then "permits" an airport to allow a certain procedure to happen.

But if enough people express concerns, then the procedure would have turned out differently.

Gold plating doesn't just suddenly happen - sometimes we just sleepwalk into it - one thin layer of gold foil at a time.
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By Dave W
#1797149
It would be heartening to think that this thread might have caused Oxford's management - and maybe that at other places, too - to step back and review whether their interpretation is in fact the correct one.
patowalker liked this
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By Dusty_B
#1797161
WingsOff wrote:
patowalker wrote:The point is that the airport has no right to have the detailed information in a GAR. It doesn't matter what UKBF says. They themselves have no right to ask the airport to obtain that information.


It's not sensitive information, it's passenger name, DOB, passport No., nationality - every airport in the world gets passenger manifests from the airlines, same information. 90% of the time the handling requests repeat the same information as that in the GAR. Really don't see the issue.


I think you need some data handling training if you think that collection of information isn't personally identifying and sensitive.

A passenger manifest is a list of names. The GAR contains a list of names, home address, DoB, city of birth, nationality, passport number, and destination address. None of that extra information is needed to be processed by anyone except immigration agencies.
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