Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
  • 1
  • 4
  • 5
  • 6
  • 7
  • 8
By OXF-OPS
#1797444
O.K. whatever your opinion is on whether an airport or handling agent should see any GAR, the facts are that if Border Force can see a flight is due to come in but they haven't yet received a GAR, they notify us (the airport) and ask us to chase the Pilot in Command or the operator for it. Chances are we've had a PPR or handling request, so more than likely to have contact details. We of course do that and 99% of the time the operator concerned forwards the GAR and we ensure it's filed on time and to the correct people. Don't really see the problem with that. In the business aviation sector, pretty much all the operators attach a copy of the GAR with their handling requests anyway - or their third party flight planning companies do. The light GA private flyers coming from overseas tend to be the ones that haven't filed correctly, or on time. Nobody ever seems offended that we might chase them up, usually very grateful for the assistance. No pilot tends to want the £2,000 fine on landing, having filled in incorrectly, or not sent in at all.
T6Harvard liked this
User avatar
By Dave W
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1797445
Well, hang on a c-p minute - that's not what you said before.

There's a major difference between chasing up a pilot to ensure that their paperwork is available to UKBA and:
OXF-OPS wrote:There is an obligation on the part of the airport to verify that the people arriving on the (international) flight are those that are on the GAR, therefore, the airport needs sight of the GAR.


Also, I think that suggesting that people making a mistake on the form is subject to a £2,000 fine is scaremongering more than somewhat - and the implication that only the airfield management stands between them and such a fine is incorrect and disproportionate.

I still think you have this wrong, and your obligations to UKBA / rights to demand sight of a GAR are not as you believe they are.
patowalker liked this
#1797449
How do Border Force "see" that a flight is coming in? In my experience their "system" gives them some basic information but the detail is harder to access. And it's not coming from flightplans because I have had hassle for flights that did not require flightplans (and didn't have them).
It took a couple of days of arguing with one officer - who eventually apologised and admitted that the rubbish system hid the details where they couldn't find them. I'm not trying to be difficult and happy to email them directly to their office because I know that it is done properly then.
By patowalker
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1797454
The information aircraft operators voluntarily provide to Oxford Airport is not the issue. The issue is that Oxford Airpord is demanding a copy of the GAR, which is unjustified.

International movements require the following additional information:

Full Name, Dates of Birth, Nationalities and Passport Numbers of all passengers and crew on board the aircraft through submission of the UK General Aviation Report (GAR) form (download-able from the UK Border Agency website here).

Once completed, please e-mail/fax to Airport & FBO Operations on:
ops@londonoxfordairport.com / Fax: +44 (0)1865 290 661 / Tel: +44 (0)1865 290 600
By WingsOff
#1797455
Flyingfemme wrote:How do Border Force "see" that a flight is coming in? In my experience their "system" gives them some basic information but the detail is harder to access. And it's not coming from flightplans because I have had hassle for flights that did not require flightplans (and didn't have them).
It took a couple of days of arguing with one officer - who eventually apologised and admitted that the rubbish system hid the details where they couldn't find them. I'm not trying to be difficult and happy to email them directly to their office because I know that it is done properly then.


For a country destined to 'Take Back Control' of its borders, I'd be worried if its border authorities had no idea what was coming in to the country. Somehow or other, I think they have the data and intelligence info to see what's planning to fly in via flight plans. If no GAR, then they chase.
User avatar
By Dave W
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1797466
WingsOff wrote:Somehow or other, I think they have the data and intelligence info to see what's planning to fly in via flight plans. If no GAR, then they chase.

That's not the answer to @Flyingfemme's question though, because:
Flyingfemme wrote:And it's not coming from flightplans because I have had hassle for flights that did not require flightplans (and didn't have them).
#1797470
Well, I think I've solved the riddle of not being able to enter an aircraft.........for US registered aircraft one has to use N-nnnxx rather than Nnnnxx. I haven't tried any other country's reg.
By Ibra
#1797486
patowalker wrote:The information aircraft operators voluntarily provide to Oxford Airport is not the issue. The issue is that Oxford Airpord is demanding a copy of the GAR, which is unjustified.

International movements require the following additional information:

Full Name, Dates of Birth, Nationalities and Passport Numbers of all passengers and crew on board the aircraft through submission of the UK General Aviation Report (GAR) form (download-able from the UK Border Agency website here).

Once completed, please e-mail/fax to Airport & FBO Operations on:
ops@londonoxfordairport.com / Fax: +44 (0)1865 290 661 / Tel: +44 (0)1865 290 600


How about airport OPS calling UKBF to check if GAR for a given flight was filed and get crew & pax details?

I think GAR (and Avgas/JetA fuel duty :D ) are pragmatic GA concessions, having to go via big airports with handlers in the name of "national security" will make most cross-channel trips non feasible or practical for the majority of sunny day travellers, by the time this becomes an "airport business" it will be a money milking machine and layers of pure bureaucracy and costs

Elsewhere (e.g. Latin America, Africa, southern Europe), you would pay +200$ for GENDEC email to get forwarded to customs by some handlers/operations, this does not even fwded on the day as customs are 24H/24H based and you will have to start all over from scratch anyway, hopefully we are not going down this route in the UK, especially after 31st Dec 2021

Even when entering the US in GA, you don't get fleeced by FBOs with this "trick", you submit an eAPIS manifest and off you go it's no longer an airport/handler job, but hey over there the FBOs tend to concentrate on offering better value services for which I am happy to pay and go beyond just forwarding my GENDEC to customs...
User avatar
By Dave W
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1797498
Ibra wrote:How about airport OPS calling UKBF to check if GAR for a given flight was filed and get crew & pax details?

But why?

Ops have no standing entitlement to that information and the only suggested reason we have for them to request it is so they can tell UKBF; if UKBF already know, then there would be no reason for the airport ops to request or be given those data.
User avatar
By James Chan
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1797502
if UKBF already know, then there would be no reason for the airport ops to request or be given those data.


What if UKBF specifically want certain local airport staff to observe and report suspicious activity - and so they are entitled to some information? (assuming GPDR requirements are being met here)

Otherwise one could submit incomplete or incorrect information on the GAR form and have a higher chance getting away ferrying dodgy pax or cargo?

UKBF needs to have their data policies clear and applied consistently across the country. And Oxford should not apply them inconsistently to anywhere else.
User avatar
By Dave W
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1797505
We were talking about normal activities, not Ops being issued with balaclavas for undercover, ummmm, ops. :D
James Chan wrote:UKBF needs to have their data policies clear and applied consistently across the country. And Oxford should not apply them inconsistently to anywhere else.

Spot on!
By Ibra
#1797513
Dave W wrote:
Ibra wrote:How about airport OPS calling UKBF to check if GAR for a given flight was filed and get crew & pax details?

But why?

Ops have no standing entitlement to that information and the only suggested reason we have for them to request it is so they can tell UKBF; if UKBF already know, then there would be no reason for the airport ops to request or be given those data.


That's my point, just one way to make it clear a bit, all airports needs to know is that GAR was sent and received :wink:

If someone believe they have a mandate or entitlement to know more for X reason, not my job to guess neither, then getting confirmation or details from UKBF should be no issue for them (assuming UKBF trust airport operators with such data)
User avatar
By Dave W
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1797521
Ibra wrote:... (assuming UKBF trust airport operators with such data)

And that's my point.

Not only should UKBF not have any requirement to trust airport operators with such data, airport operators have no valid reason to have it - either from UKBF or directly.

The data handling responsibility is UKBF's. Nobody else's, and AIUI that responsibility cannot be delegated.
Ibra, patowalker liked this
By tomtytom
#1797526
James Chan wrote:Otherwise one could submit incomplete or incorrect information on the GAR form and have a higher chance getting away ferrying dodgy pax or cargo?



If this was the case would'nt you want to use a stay field and send the GAR forms to local plod on the high chance they wont show up? [Joke on} Unless your shifting like a lot of gear and really need one of those airport trolleys from your handling agent to unload then yeah I see your point :thumleft: [/joke off]
By patowalker
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1797616
James Chan wrote:
if UKBF already know, then there would be no reason for the airport ops to request or be given those data.


What if UKBF specifically want certain local airport staff to observe and report suspicious activity - and so they are entitled to some information? (assuming GPDR requirements are being met here)

Otherwise one could submit incomplete or incorrect information on the GAR form and have a higher chance getting away ferrying dodgy pax or cargo?

UKBF needs to have their data policies clear and applied consistently across the country. And Oxford should not apply them inconsistently to anywhere else.


Is there any evidence that UKBF data policies are not clear and applied consistently?

https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... nformation
  • 1
  • 4
  • 5
  • 6
  • 7
  • 8