Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
By chevvron
#1787164
Flyin'Dutch' wrote:@chevvron

We are not the military or a derivative thereof, and just because the military use something that does not make it fabulous.

Respect to the people in blue for what they do but some of their practises are not suitable for civilian flying.

Their colour codes are very different and not quite logic.
Their use of QFE might be good for them as they have bang seats that use QFE but for civilian use the QNH is better and their insistance on using the RPS a recipe for infringements.

You are assessing a possible flight safety hazard from the point of view of civil GA pilots, I am seeing it from the point of view of all airspace users (nothing to do with QFE/QNH where I entriely agree with you) both civil and military.
Military colour codes have been in use since the '50s; I wish the CAA would adopt them as it would make the job of FISOs/ATCOs at those place without ATIS far easier.
By the way has this system actually been approved by the CAA for use at places where the pilot needs to decide if an iap is necessary?
Last edited by chevvron on Thu Jul 30, 2020 2:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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By PaulSS
#1787166
Their use of QFE might be good for them as they have bang seats that use QFE


@Flyin'Dutch' Please don't write bolleaux about something you clearly know nothing about. The setting of QFE on a military fast-jet's altimeter has absolutely nothing to do with Martin Baker.

As for the colour code system; for once I agree with Chevron. Why introduce another 'standard' when one already exists? I know why PAW are using the one they have chosen but I don't know why that was invented in the first place when the military one was already around. The colour codes are not that different and they are really very logical. Yellow 1 & Yellow 2 are probably not required for civilian flying but the rest is just as logical as the 'civilian' one chosen by PAW.
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By Flyin'Dutch'
#1787210
PaulSS wrote:
Their use of QFE might be good for them as they have bang seats that use QFE


@Flyin'Dutch' Please don't write bolleaux about something you clearly know nothing about. The setting of QFE on a military fast-jet's altimeter has absolutely nothing to do with Martin Baker.

As for the colour code system; for once I agree with Chevron. Why introduce another 'standard' when one already exists? I know why PAW are using the one they have chosen but I don't know why that was invented in the first place when the military one was already around. The colour codes are not that different and they are really very logical. Yellow 1 & Yellow 2 are probably not required for civilian flying but the rest is just as logical as the 'civilian' one chosen by PAW.


I enquired about the use of QFE by the RAF with a former RAF jockey and that was the reason he gave. Thanks for your eloquent education; maybe you can enlighten us what is the reason it is used?

Af for the colour system we clearly disagree, I presume that is OK?
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By PaulSS
#1787221
I enquired about the use of QFE by the RAF with a former RAF jockey and that was the reason he gave. Thanks for your eloquent education; maybe you can enlighten us what is the reason it is used?
Well that former Crab jockey is talking out of his elbow. The ejection seat has its own barostatic unit. It would hardly be much use getting its information from an aircraft from which it has been rocketed. QFE makes it nice and easy to fly circuits. Apart from that I have no idea why they favour it over QNH. Personally, I don't really care what is used and employed the radalt most of the time from the ship anyway.

Af for the colour system we clearly disagree, I presume that is OK?
You presume correctly but I will say as a former IRI/IRE I found the military colour code system extremely useful and in no way complicated. It can easily be used by civilians and is a 'suitable' tool. It gives an instant appreciation of how good, bad or indifferent the weather is at an airfield. Why sit there decoding a METAR when it's Red and you know you're not going there?
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By Flyin'Dutch'
#1787234
PaulSS wrote:
Af for the colour system we clearly disagree, I presume that is OK?
You presume correctly but I will say as a former IRI/IRE I found the military colour code system extremely useful and in no way complicated. It can easily be used by civilians and is a 'suitable' tool. It gives an instant appreciation of how good, bad or indifferent the weather is at an airfield. Why sit there decoding a METAR when it's Red and you know you're not going there?


You see I have never yet made it beyond a CPL/IR so will have to struggle on. :D
By chevvron
#1787274
Flyin'Dutch' wrote:
PaulSS wrote:
Af for the colour system we clearly disagree, I presume that is OK?
You presume correctly but I will say as a former IRI/IRE I found the military colour code system extremely useful and in no way complicated. It can easily be used by civilians and is a 'suitable' tool. It gives an instant appreciation of how good, bad or indifferent the weather is at an airfield. Why sit there decoding a METAR when it's Red and you know you're not going there?


You see I have never yet made it beyond a CPL/IR so will have to struggle on. :D

I never made it beyond PPL but I understand the colour code system used by the RAF; I also know the RAF tried using QNH only for a number of years before reverting to QFE.
By AlanC
#1787279
PaulSS wrote:It can easily be used by civilians and is a 'suitable' tool. It gives an instant appreciation of how good, bad or indifferent the weather is at an airfield. Why sit there decoding a METAR when it's Red and you know you're not going there?


Absolutely - it's a great aid, especially for snap judgement calls. Although why the colours didn't link to Mil IR colours is a different question...

The debate here is perhaps how useful the colour code system is to those who have never experienced it. It's a nice one to teach the appreciation of, but I suspect I/my colleagues are often teaching in the minority, since the main civil system has nothing similar and no appreciation unless suitably educated - sadly that suitable education rarely happens, for whatever reasons. It does therefore make more sense for the purely civilian pilot who is unlikely to ever encounter military aviation in any form to move to a simple traffic light wx code much as SD does (although fun to talk with students about what personal minima they've set, and why mine is showing VFR when theirs is showing Marginal/IFR!). Green = Go, Red = No Go ties in with that well enough.

Alternatively: if encouraging use of a UK Mil generated colour code scheme, can we all have access to MOMIDS :twisted:
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By chevvron
#1787336
PaulSS wrote:As for the colour code system; for once I agree with Chevron. Why introduce another 'standard' when one already exists? I know why PAW are using the one they have chosen but I don't know why that was invented in the first place when the military one was already around. The colour codes are not that different and they are really very logical. Yellow 1 & Yellow 2 are probably not required for civilian flying but the rest is just as logical as the 'civilian' one chosen by PAW.

There only used to be one 'Yellow' but the Navy insisted on using Y1 and Y2 and now it's become 'standard'.
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By neilmurg
#1787566
fyi, these are the METARs that were being uploaded to passing Pilotaware users at various points this afternoon. I guess the idea is that f'rinstance, the chap flying to IoW today who was concerned about thunderstorms would have real time info in flight.
Image
Image
Image
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By neilmurg
#1787568
The colours make sense to me, but by all means, lobby for a change (buy a PAw first)
[edit to add]Aren't these the colours used in the Met Office map display to warn about weather conditions at airfields?[/edit]Image
Last edited by neilmurg on Sat Aug 01, 2020 3:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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By Flyin'Dutch'
#1787590
That's a great tool.
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