Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
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By lobstaboy
#1783555
Miscellaneous wrote:
lobstaboy wrote:
Miscellaneous wrote:Neither. IMO you are eliminating risks as an emotional response, rather than logical, that are so small they are insignificant in terms of the overall risks of flying GA. :D

I will, however, defend your right to do so. :thumright:


Emotional response maybe, but they are all the result of something bad that has happened to me and I don't want to put myself in the same situation again.

That's where the logic fails, IMO.

That something untoward has happened is not an indication it is has higher probability of happening again. That it did happen and you are still here is testament to it turning out okay.

There's an underlying assumption that you will only participate in flights of a 'type' you have not had something bad happen. That's flawed thinking. Because something hasn't happened is no more an indication it will not happen, than something having happened is an indication it will happen again.

If we had all to desist from activities in which we had something bad happen, in the belief it would happen again, we wouldn't have much of a life. :D

EDIT: seeing @Rob P's post above caused me to wonder what you would do if, like Rob, you had an EFATO. Would you stop taking off and so hang up your headset?


You misunderstand. We agree that mostly I'm reacting to emotion. Not cold hard logic. It's a big mistake to believe that people should make decisions based only on logic.
I have had two EFATOs. I learned from both. The learning isn't to stop flying but to look for the chain of causation and find a way to break that chain in future. That way you know you've done your best to not get caught out that way again.
Contrariwise, you seem to be suggesting that since logic says something is very unlikely to happen then there is no point in worrying about it. But risk is made up of two elements - likelihood of a bad thing happening AND the magnitude of the impact it will have if it does happen. That's where my personal rule about no overwater flights comes from - small likelihood of ending up in the drink but big impact if you do (coupled in my case with an emotional aversion to being dunked).
Last edited by lobstaboy on Wed Jul 15, 2020 10:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
JAFO liked this
#1783556
Miscellaneous wrote:
Genghis the Engineer wrote:Never attempt a take-off unless I am sure there's somewhere to go off the end of the runway.

that you will not fly to/from anywhere where there is not a clear and safe option?

that you are aware of the best option, however bad it is?


That there is a useable option which gives me a high probability of survival in the event of an EFATO, and I know what it is.

G
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By Miscellaneous
#1783561
lobstaboy wrote:You misunderstand. We agree that mostly I'm reacting to emotion.
Not cold hard logic. It's a big mistake to believe that people should make decisions based only on logic.

I would suggest it is a greater mistake to base decisions solely, or even with, say, much more than 10-15% emotion. :D The worst that can happen with your golden rules is to deprive yourself of some pleasures you may experience. Using emotion to make decisions logic demonstrates are dangerous is a different matter. :D

lobstaboy wrote:I have had two EFATOs. I learned from both. The learning isn't to stop flying but to look for the chain of causation and find a way to break that chain in future. That way you know you've done your best to not get caught out that way again.

Interesting. This supports the view of it being raw emotion. The price of not hand swinging is denying yourself the associated benefits, a price you conclude is worth paying. However, the the price of not risking an EFATO is not flying, a price you are not prepared to pay.

All interesting stuff. :thumright:

@Genghis the Engineer so you avoid airfields where there are no options?
By Straight Level
#1783563
Genghis the Engineer wrote:
Before making any aeronautical decision, always run through my mind the phrase "at the subsequent board of inquiry".

G


I have a very similar golden rule:-
Before making any aeronautical decision, always run through my mind the phrase "at the subsequent Flyer board of inquiry" :D

SL
Rob P, Sooty25, Charles Hunt and 4 others liked this
By Rallye
#1783567
lobstaboy wrote:My reaction to various recent threads made me realise im probably quite cautious. I've a few golden rules or personal habits that I've adopted after an experience has made me think, "I don't want to do that again!"
- I don't fly in an SEP over water
- I don't hand prop aeroplanes, mine or anyone else's
- I always try to use the full runway length and refuse intersection take-offs
- I always plan a cross country route first on a paper chart even when a GPS moving map is going to be my primary in flight nav tool

Wuss? Or sensible? You decide.

Also what do you think I should add to my list?


I agree all your items but i am surely to cautious and would even add some
I never fly with a child without a written agreement from both parents.
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By lobstaboy
#1783568
Miscellaneous wrote:Interesting. This supports the view of it being raw emotion. The price of not hand swinging is denying yourself the associated benefits, a price you conclude is worth paying. However, the the price of not risking an EFATO is not flying, a price you are not prepared to pay.


Yes. This is how we all make decisions all the time. But very often with incomplete information.
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By Miscellaneous
#1783569
lobstaboy wrote:Yes. This is how we all make decisions all the time. But very often with incomplete information.

I agree. :thumright: I would add to not having all the info., that the decisions are not always rational, with rationality more often than not being inversely proportional to emotion. :D
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By JAFO
#1783574
Personal Golden Rule - If at first you don't succeed, destroy all evidence that you ever attempted it. :D

I'm finding the lists people are providing very interesting. Some of the points resonate and are worth taking on board, others are simply fascinating for the way people approach things.

I used to be a devout coward with a yellow streak so wide I didn't need a hi-vis vest. Now I am less cowardly but I am very aware of being quite risk averse and unadventurous. I try to talk myself out of that as often as possible.
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By Miscellaneous
#1783577
JAFO wrote:I'm finding the lists people are providing very interesting. Some of the points resonate and are worth taking on board, others are simply fascinating for the way people approach things.

What adds to the fascination, is that many with golden rules willingly break them with, often, irrational reasoning. :D

All part of being human.

JAFO wrote:Now I am less cowardly but I am very aware of being quite risk averse and unadventurous. I try to talk myself out of that as often as possible.

I am a firm believer that being risk averse is in fact a risk in itself. :D
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By lobstaboy
#1783580
Miscellaneous wrote:...decisions are not always rational, with rationality more often than not being inversely proportional to emotion. :D


That's fair. So what I'm saying that I try to do is to recognise that some of my decision making will have an emotional element and to deal with that appropriately, rather than to deny the emotional element and leave it to fester in the background.
So for me, the best way to stop the little furry mammal part of my brain gibbering, "OMG that's water down there! It's cold and wet and we're gonna die!!!" and in the process stopping me from concentrating on flying the aeroplane, is for me to avoid putting it in that position in the first place, not to argue with it with logic.
I guess other people's little furry mammals get upset by different threats to mine.
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By Miscellaneous
#1783581
JAFO wrote:
Miscellaneous wrote:I am a firm believer that being risk averse is in fact a risk in itself. :D


I'm working on it, Misc, I'm working on it.

The comment was generic and not aimed at anyone in particular. :oops:
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