[gfry]

When I had my failure i tried to turn back. I just leveled off at 1000ft and switched the fuel pump off. It was game over at that point. In my 180 I lost ~400ft, the remaining 600ft got me to within about 200m of the runway in to a "field" safely, albeit a bit of hedge rash on the tail. All the options to my left, right and in front where either ploughed fields or fields that were not going to be big enough by the time I cleared trees.

I am a firm believer of do what you have to do in order to have the best chance of surviving...and you wont know what that is until it happens. It took all of 45 seconds from engine failure to being back on the ground.

[Lefty]

A Cherokee 6 at mauw descends at >1500 fpm in a wings level glide.
Add in a 45 degree banked turn and it is up around 2000 fpm. My options for a turn back are effectively zero.

[Ibra]

Loaded or unloaded 180 tight turns or spirals are the best way to lose height IMO

What is the quickest way to turn back 180deg with minium height loss with engine off? If you are at stall speed it is wingover, if you are faster it is a chandelle, both are tight low G manoeuvres try it at sensible height

[MichaelP]

Specific circumstances require slight modifications of the general statement

.

That is certainly not the impression I get when you say:-

should not be clouded by any other consideration.

I would have thought it goes without saying that if you do NOT know what lies beyond the runway end then that is the time you need to stick to the brief you gave - I do not see how you realistically do otherwise!?

When I know what is beyond the end of the runway then I add the preferred direction: “...30/45 degrees either side of the nose, in this case it will be to the left, there’s a field in that direction.”

What I mean with “clouded” is reference to such things as: ‘...if above eight hundred feet I will attempt to turn back...” or what I often hear is a diatribe about the departure routing we will be taking including headings and altitudes.
I prefer to keep the safety brief simple, the routing we take is not of immediate concern, it should be in the back of one’s mind. What needs to be in the front of one’s mind is the takeoff and initial climb and what you do in those few hundred feet.

In the Sopwith Pup I briefed myself with the hope of at least two hundred feet AGL as I knew I could get the aeroplane safely back on the ground if the olde engine failed...

What is the quickest way to turn back 180deg with minium height loss with engine off? If you are at stall speed it is wingover, if you are faster it is a chandelle, both are tight low G manoeuvres try it at sensible height

I’d never do a ‘wing over’ at stall speed! A Chandelle is a climbing manoeuvre, there’s no future in that. Both of these will lead to lost of control if attempted following an EFATO.

[Ibra]

I am just saying these are the proven ways to do "quick 180" with min height loss & tight radius, aircraft stays well controllable in wingover/chandelles even with steep 60deg bank/pitch (not sure why but on a 90deg bank wingover from 60deg climb the stall warner does not even buzz when the ASI hits 20kts let alone VS0), for sure a steep loaded turn or unloaded dive are not the right way to do "quick 180" in controllable fashion with min height loss and min radius...

Obviously, none of these are the right thing to do in low EFATO, you could argue that landing with tailwind is a poor airmanship

On few tight airstrips, it seems that nearby farms ahead of the runway are more wide and welcoming than the tight runway I was departing from, so no 180 turn or aerobtics for me thanks

I need 1500ft agl to do 360 back from upwind to final using my aircraft and about 400ft agl in my glider, both assume no height loss while I am think WTH is happening

The only time when I had this happening for real was at 50ft in Cub, still I took few seconds to notice that I barely had idle power (suspect was carb ice) as i was in denial state

[Waveflyer]

Why don't you try nipping down to your local winch-launching glider site and ask for demonstration of cable breaks at different heights?

A modern glider has rather better engine out performance than most GA aircraft!

Nothing to learn then

[Longfinal]

Why don't you try nipping down to your local winch-launching glider site and ask for demonstration of cable breaks at different heights?

A modern glider has rather better engine out performance than most GA aircraft!

Nothing to learn then

Never nothing to learn but in this case, other than get the nose down, perhaps the wrong lessons. An EFATO in most GA types from, say 500” leaves very little time for anything other than getting into a field or space you have thought about in advance, probably ahead within 10 - 20 deg of the nose.

It’s an emergency nowhere near practiced enough yet the potential for stall & spin in such a high stress scenario should have people honing their reactions regularly.

[TLRippon]

Am I missing something? A 180 degree turn won't put you back on the downwind end of the runway you took off from. It will put you about quarter mile from the side of it.

You need to turn back by about 220 degrees in one direction and then 40 degrees in the other direction to make the runway. Good luck with that under 500'

[kanga]

.., you could argue that landing with tailwind is a poor airmanship

..

I did my final UK SPL training and GFT at a former bomber field with a looong runway but a minimal ATZ and an ILS at only one end. It had a small airline for whom I worked on the ground, and a tiny FC. In that era, AVTUR was cheap, simulators were rare unsophisticated and expensive, and there were no neighbours with noise or pollution complaints. So the field was popular with airlines based elsewhere but reasonably close to come to do crew type and currency renewal approach training on the one ILS direction, even if it was with a tailwind. When this was happening, all other traffic had to use that direction. Thus I occasionally had to land a C150 with a tailwind and after a B707 or similar .. but with plenty of runway.

[The field was called Stansted .. ]

[rusty eagle]

Two things I learned in my gliding days were, following a cable break, to put the nose down immediately and release the cable. Get flying speed and assess. Land ahead if possible, else start a turn (downwind if any crosswind) and then either make a dog leg and land ahead or continue the turn and keep assessing landing options. Keeping airspeed up for best control and flying by how the aircraft felt. No time to look at instruments.

Getting the nose down fast is also a life saver in a low inertia, high drag aircraft.

[foxmoth]

You need to turn back by about 220 degrees in one direction and then 40 degrees in the other direction to make the runway. Good luck with that under 500'

Actually not the case, a lot depends on the field of course, often on a grass field you don’t even need to land on the runway, just on the field will do and at least there is the fire service on hand unless it is a farm strip. Even landing on the runway you can land at an angle, possibly straightening on the ground. Even if you run off the side, probably a better option than an unknown surface!
One thing to remember with a tailwind landing is that, especially in a taildragger, as you slow down you have no slipstream and as the groundspeed drops below that of the wind the rudder will reverse! Been there, got the t-shirt!

[Rob P]

One thing to remember with a tailwind landing is that, especially in a taildragger, as you slow down you have no slipstream and as the groundspeed drops below that of the wind the rudder will reverse

I've around three hundred tailwheel hours now and today I have learned something new (and possibly useful)

Rob P

[Crash one]

One thing to remember with a tailwind landing is that, especially in a taildragger, as you slow down you have no slipstream and as the groundspeed drops below that of the wind the rudder will reverse

I've around three hundred tailwheel hours now and today I have learned something new (and possibly useful)

Rob P

When the ground speed matches tailwind speed there is no aerodynamic control at all, after that, everything reverses, been there and got that T shirt.

[mikehallam]

What's your throttle for, if not to provide a draught over the tail. Use large handfuls and stick back to have rudder control at lowish ground speeds.

[Rob L]

One thing to remember with a tailwind landing is that, especially in a taildragger, as you slow down you have no slipstream and as the groundspeed drops below that of the wind the rudder will reverse

I've around three hundred tailwheel hours now and today I have learned something new (and possibly useful)

Rob P

Don't forget the elevators too.
Somewhere up there ^^^^ I advocated practicing downwind landings in controlled conditions, in case you have to do one in anger.

Rob