Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
#1771116
Bathman wrote:Presumably a politically or regulatory reason. Does anyone one know why?

I've always thought the same. There are some licensed airfields with very few movements and some very busy unlicensed ones. If the purpose of ATZ is safety then they should be based on the number of movements not whether it is licensed or not.

Until the ATZ rules changed in the '80s when the 2nm radius or 2.5nm radius ATZs were introduced, all airfields were deemed to have had an ATZ up to 1.5nm from the airfield boundary whether licensed or not, so for instance, Lasham, one of the busiest, had an ATZ at one time.
#1771129
There are some licensed airfields with very few movements and some very busy unlicensed ones


My guess:
- When unlicensed, the CAA has little to do with it. Monitoring and preventing risk of mid-air collisions are someone else's problem.
- When licensed, the CAA gets to survey and monitor, and then suggest or direct the ATS level depending on the situation.
User avatar
By foxmoth
#1771133
James Chan wrote:
There are some licensed airfields with very few movements and some very busy unlicensed ones


My guess:
- When unlicensed, the CAA has little to do with it. Monitoring and preventing the mid-air collisions are someone else's problem.
- When licensed, the CAA gets to survey and monitor, and then suggest or direct the ATS level depending on the environment.

So you think CAA involvement is a good thing? I believe most people would think otherwise and you make your own decisions on what your particular airfield needs!
#1771134
Talkdownman wrote:Try this. (I can't find the latest version)
It's where the requirement for AFIS first started.
Doesn't apply to non-sched below 5 point 7 (which is how the jockeys get around...)
I don't understand why aerodromes which don't need AFIS (or aren't required to provide AFIS) go to the trouble and expense of providing AFIS.


I can't actually remember when the FISO License was introduced but I do remember that in the '70s, NATS (and its predecessor NATCS) operated its own FISO scheme at its Highlands and Islands airfields; these were run by an ATCO who was also airport manager and a Tels man who was trained as and supposed to provide AFIS when the ATCO wasn't available.
Last edited by chevvron on Thu May 21, 2020 11:11 am, edited 2 times in total.
#1771141
So you think CAA involvement is a good thing? I believe most people would think otherwise and you make your own decisions on what your particular airfield needs!


Where there is no legal mandate, I believe the aerodrome owner/operator gets to choose whether they want, or not want CAA involvement. That is a matter of risk / insurance assessment for them.

If they do want the CAA and license it, then my guess is that the premiums are lower due to the external expertise available.

Personally I think CAA involvement is a good thing (in principle) for places that are generally open to the public and are routinely busier. And much less needed for private farm strips, private residential airparks, and similar.
Last edited by James Chan on Thu May 21, 2020 12:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
#1771157
James Chan wrote:I believe the aerodrome owner/operator gets to choose whether they want, or not want CAA involvement. That is a matter of risk / insurance assessment for them.

No.
The CAA can 'require' an airport operator to provide a particular level of ATS which it did with Wycombe and Redhill, both of which were required to upgrade from AFIS to ATC.
#1771166
No


I'm wondering if we are talking two separate things:
1) CAA requiring a particular level of ATS for a licensed aerodrome.
2) The owner/operator choosing whether they want their aerodrome licensed.
I was talking about 2 just now. I talked about 1 in an earlier post.
#1771175
Some aerodromes don't have a choice whether to be regulated by the CAA or not.
Certification of Aerodromes

UK Aerodromes that fall within the scope of EASA will be subject to regulations set by EU/EASA.

Aerodromes fall within the scope of EASA if they meet all of the following requirements:

Open to public use and which serve commercial air transport and where operations using instrument approach or departure procedures are provided, and:

(a) have a paved runway of 800 metres or above; or
(b) exclusively serve helicopters.

The CAA has compiled a list of UK licensed aerodromes that currently fall within the scope of EASA.
EU/ EASA Regulations

Aerodrome regulations in the form of Implementing Rules (IR), Acceptable Means of Compliance (AMC) and Certification Specifications (CS) are now in force.

The European Commission published Commission Regulation (EU) No 139/2014 on 12 February 2014. The regulation contains the Implementing Rules that cover all EASA aerodromes.

EASA has published their Acceptable Means of Compliance (AMC) and Guidance Material (GM) to Authority, Organisation and Operations Requirements for Aerodromes.

EASA has published their Certification Specifications (CS) and Guidance Material for Aerodrome Design CS-ADR-DSN.

https://www.caa.co.uk/Commercial-industry/Airports/Aerodrome-licences/Certificates/EASA-regulations-relating-to-aerodromes/

For National Aerodromes it's this:
Guidance on applying for an aerodrome licence

If you wish to make a formal application for an Aerodrome Licence, the information on this page may be of assistance to you.

The same application procedure is followed for Temporary, Seasonal and Permanent Aerodrome Licences.
Who needs a licence?
It is possible to operate an aerodrome without a licence

Many aerodromes do not need a licence to carry out flying activities.
Guidance and advice on setting up and operating an unlicensed aerodrome (including helicopter landing sites) is provided in our publication CAP 793 Safe Operating Practices at Unlicensed Aerodromes

Some aerodromes must legally be licensed

It is a legal requirement for an aerodrome to be licensed if it is used for:

commercial passenger flights
public transport passenger flights
flying training in aircraft above a specified weight

Full details of the circumstances under which aerodromes must be licensed can be found in Article 212 of Air Navigation Order 2016 (CAP 393).

https://www.caa.co.uk/Commercial-indust ... e-licence/

The big question is what will the CAA do about those aerodromes currently certificated under EASA Reg 2014/139 if or when the UK leaves EASA?
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#1771390
ISTR from my UK Air Law studying (many decades ago :roll: ) was that one requirement of a Licensed Aerodrome was (then) that it had to have a Signals Square, operational and maintained (eg 'T' moved on change of runway (or landing direction) in use) - so Heathrow (then) had one (somewhere!) .. :)
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User avatar
By foxmoth
#1771395
chevvron wrote:I dare say it's changed nowadays but at one time, insurance companies required certain aircraft (eg flying school aircraft used for instructional flights or hired for a recreational flight by a qualified PPL) to only operate to/from a licensed airfield.


That was not insurance but a regulatory requirement for ab initio training and withdrawn a few years ago