Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
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By AlanM
#1770777
bilko2 wrote:
Then why bother at all with any expensive ATC/Fire Cover?


I'm quite happy without either (present company excepted)


Then, as an industry/passtime, why do we bother then?

Redhill/Blackbushe - why do you have both?
#1770778
I suspect the CAA is being used as a convenient excuse, much as Insurance companies often have their name taken in vain, when the real truth is "we could do it, but can't be arrsed so we'll shift the blame onto a big organisation so you don't think I'm being unhelpful, which I am"

Rob P
skydriller, defcribed liked this
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By bilko2
#1770783
Even I have to admit that ATC has it's uses. We could operate perfectly happily with a lot less though, even more as our magic screens start to display other aircraft.

Fire cover is less useful IMHO, though often the firemen do other stuff too, some point in that.
#1770804
I'm quite happy without either


They are there for operators who like it or need it, or there is some other safety reason or insurance requirement.
The costs outweigh the benefits otherwise.

Any reasonably run aerodrome would want to maximise their movements and keep open as much as possible - as it is what brings revenue to them and benefits the local area. ATC and fire cover protects pilots and protects them too.

It would be a nightmare to attempt to self-sequence at busier places - and ATC has saved my bacon on a number of occasions where my Mk1 eyeball had failed to see.

As for fire, maybe there's no public fire service nearby, so they need something on-site to extinguish the flames quicker, contain the damage, and unblock the runway.
#1770814
AlanM wrote:You mean allow movements at licensed aerodromes with optional ATC or Fire and Rescue cover? I cannot imagine the CAA or airfield owners allowing that, even in these times. (Not saying it couldn’t work).


Yes, thats exactly what Im saying. Surely you must know what happens just across that short bit of water from where you are? There are restricted ATC hours and outside those the aerodrome goes self announce "FR Seulement". There even places where they have the odd commercial flight, where there is a CTR that gets deactivated from D and becomes G... :shock: (or vice-versa).

Regards, SD..
#1770819
Why is it like this in the UK? There must be a reason. I can well remember being prevented from departing Carlise due to ATC being on lunch. I was happy to self announce and depart (to a strip with safteycom) but it wasn't allowed.

utterly ridiculous
rogerb liked this
User avatar
By AlanM
#1770820
skydriller wrote:
AlanM wrote:You mean allow movements at licensed aerodromes with optional ATC or Fire and Rescue cover? I cannot imagine the CAA or airfield owners allowing that, even in these times. (Not saying it couldn’t work).


Yes, thats exactly what Im saying. Surely you must know what happens just across that short bit of water from where you are? There are restricted ATC hours and outside those the aerodrome goes self announce "FR Seulement". There even places where they have the odd commercial flight, where there is a CTR that gets deactivated from D and becomes G... :shock: (or vice-versa).

Regards, SD..


So are we talking Little-Piddle-on the Marsh or a regional airport with commercial passenger flights?

I am aware of life in Dinard/Cherbourg/St Brieuc etc. So, to confirm, we pay the fireman to be on standby just in case - or are they paid when needed?

The issue for me is not whether it is safe for one or two light aircraft to depart, but one of staffing when a service is needed.

And let’s face it, it will never happen here so my interest level is waning....!
#1770824
There are restricted ATC hours and outside those the aerodrome goes self announce "FR Seulement".


Part time ATC (not necessarily Covid related) does exist, e.g. Shoreham where the first two hours of opening on Mon-Fri is A/G only.
Part time fire cover categories also exists - e.g. Blackbushe where categories change at different hours, and by prior arrangement.

That said I'm not suggesting that aerodromes should go way out of their way to come up with all sorts of part-time alternatives during in this Covid temporary period. It may be easier for pilots to reschedule their flights instead. It comes down to costs vs benefits at the end of the day.
User avatar
By foxmoth
#1770826
AlanM wrote:
bilko2 wrote:
Then why bother at all with any expensive ATC/Fire Cover?
g

I'm quite happy without either (present company excepted)


Then, as an industry/passtime, why do we bother then?

Redhill/Blackbushe - why do you have both?


It used to be that Flying schools had to have a licensed field, that is no longer the case and i suspect many fields have just never thought of changing.

It would be a nightmare to attempt to self-sequence at busier places
unless ATC has radar then most places are self positioning anyway, certainly at fields with an AFISO service that is the case.
THe way to go is multitasking ground staff who can work on the airfield and also provide fire service, maybe with a radio to provide airfield info to anyone that actually needs it
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By AndyR
#1770838
bilko2 wrote:Fire cover is less useful IMHO, though often the firemen do other stuff too, some point in that.


Until you need them of course...

Yes, I operate from a farm strip with no cover of any sort, as well as from more sizeable airports, but more than once I have been glad to have fire crew tail chasing me down the runway on landing.