Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
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#1769096
rdfb wrote:
Who can raise a (legit) MOR? Perhaps everyone should be raising one every time they witness CAT breaking the law in such a dangerous way?

If the CAA then systematically ignore every report relating to a controlled ATZ but take action for every other report when the law makes no such distinction, perhaps that would weaken their case and give them an incentive to fix it?

FISOs are supposed to MOR every pilot who lands without being given 'land at your discretion' irrespective of whether the runway is occupied or not.
I don't know how many of these MORs have been submitted nor am I aware what action the CAA would take when they get one.
When I suggested to the CAA that they allow a form of 'land after' (as used by ATC to a second landing aircraft provided certain conditions are met) thus mitigating the need to MOR, their response was 'if you're that busy maybe we should be looking at requiring you to provide ATC rather than AFIS'.
User avatar
By Dave W
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1769101
chevvron wrote:FISOs are supposed to MOR every pilot who lands without being given 'land at your discretion' irrespective of whether the runway is occupied or not.

Interesting.

Is "LAYD" a de facto clearance. then? In that you should have been passed it before you can (legally?) land?

As the pilot, are you expected to go around if no "LAYD" received at short final?
WaxMax45 liked this
By chevvron
#1769110
Dave W wrote:
chevvron wrote:FISOs are supposed to MOR every pilot who lands without being given 'land at your discretion' irrespective of whether the runway is occupied or not.

Interesting.

Is "LAYD" a de facto clearance. then? In that you should have been passed it before you can (legally?) land?

As the pilot, are you expected to go around if no "LAYD" received at short final?


I believe it's the CAA's view that only one aircraft is permitted to use the runway at a time, so if the FISO is unable to pass LAYD due to (say) another aircraft on the runway, even when it's obvious that aircraft will have vacated by the time the second one actually touches down, the FISO must reply with 'quality' traffic information and MOR the second aircraft if it does touch down without LAYD.
Going around is entirely at the pilots discretion; the FISO obviously cannot instruct the pilot to go around however in my experience, most pilots do so without a LAYD.
User avatar
By Dave W
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1769113
chevvron wrote:I believe it's the CAA's view that only one aircraft is permitted to use the runway at a time, so if the FISO is unable to pass LAYD due to (say) another aircraft on the runway,

Yes, most of that is clear.

My question was prompted because you said:
chevvron wrote:FISOs are supposed to MOR every pilot who lands without being given 'land at your discretion' irrespective of whether the runway is occupied or not.

The possible reasons for the lack of a FISO "LAYD" call isn't really what I was getting at - it could be due to an error on the FISO's part, a radio issue, a late clearing aircraft; any number of reasons. From the pilots' perspective, if we don't get "LAYD" - for whatever reason but let's assume the runway is indeed unoccupied - what is the CAA's and FISO's expectation for our subsequent actions?

Currently, when operating at an ATC airfield a significant amount of my attention on final is directed towards listening for the "Cleared to Land" call and planning for actions if I don't get it.

I do not currently apply the same strategy when operating at an AFISO field since my view has always been that it is my responsibility to determine the safety of my actions up until I am ground side of the hold.

Should I, if for no other reason than to avoid a potential MOR?
Kemble Pitts liked this
User avatar
By Dave W
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1769165
tomshep wrote:Not without being told that he can!

Well, I'm not sure that's right, hence the question.

@chevvron suggested that was the case but it doesn't seem right to me, and absolutely not how I understood the responsibilities of the pilot at an AFISO airfield.

But with potential MORs in the offing I'd like to be certain.
flybymike liked this
By johnm
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1769167
LAYD should be information not clearance in the context of FISO.

It's effectively information that the runway is clear. As the FISO controls traffic on the ground he can clear aircraft to enter the runway so LAYD is confirmation that hasn't happened and that previously landing aircraft have cleared the runway.

To a pilot landing without LAYD he needs to see that the runway is clear and that nothing is going to pass the holding point and join the runway.
WaxMax45, GrahamB, Cowshed liked this
#1769180
Try going to the States....

ATC: "On the heading cleared to intercept the localiser for 25L, you are 4 miles in trail to a Lear 45 At your discretion, break off the localiser, follow the Lear, do not join final on 19R below 4,000', VFR helicopter traffic beneath, cleared land 19R."

A genuine clearance given to us in a 330 at Las Vegas. The FO just glazed over...... Thankfully, I had the gist of it and managed a decent readback, while flying it peeing myself laughing.
flybymike liked this
#1769202
Surely the AFISO’s responsibility for quasi-control extends to the Runway hold? Anything beyond that and in the air is purely for information only


You would think that wouldn't you, but I wish I could find the original White AIC that specifically stated that when the commander has called at the hold "Ready for departure" the only response from a FISO was to give relevant traffic info & W/V. This has now morphed into almost total control with the "report lined up" & "Hold position " quasi instructions because a C42 has just turned downwind.

As said if landing is my discretion then thats what it is, so nothing more than "Roger" is required after LAYD, or nothing if no reply, I for one wouldn't give a hoot if didn't get a reply to "Final" so long as the R/.W was clear all good to go...
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