Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
  • 1
  • 9
  • 10
  • 11
  • 12
  • 13
  • 15
#1840698
FlarePath wrote:Hopefully a simple question, after passing the hold and on the active, what "authority" does a FISO have over the the aircraft now? Forgetting about "humps,bumps" etc..


CAP 797 circa pages 20 and 66 or thereabouts covers...

http://publicapps.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP ... on%204.pdf

Which, fwiw, as I read suggests some Aerodrome FISOs may be over-FISOing/controlling the take-off/landing stuff.
#1840702
Ever since the White AIC came out before the dawn of time outlining what a FISO can /cant do it has never changed to my knowledge that once on the active the commander is now the only authority on that runway. So all this "Line up & wait" "Report Lined Up" is nonsense and should be reiterated by the CAA. I did suffer the wrath of a FISO once when having lined up and sat waiting for the quasi clearance to depart while a lot of chat was occuring so took off and was severly berated at about 50' for not being advised to wait for the "take of at my discretion" i was subsequently talked out of having a word with the FISO....
#1840705
I trained at Wellesbourne back in the 80s. The FISO there was, and remains, a superb example of the breed. Done properly there is no issue that I can see.

Whether there's any huge benefit is probably debatable, and from hearsay (exclusively on here) there are some places they are problematical.

Of all the issues the CAA should be addressing I'd say this was pretty much the lowest priority.

Rob P
#1840708
Dave W wrote:@chevvron, to re-post a comment I made on 15 May last year:
Dave W wrote:...I would be very concerned indeed if I thought AFISOs believed - between me entering the runway from the hold and lining up - that they could instruct aircraft and vehicles to use that same runway.

I would consider that a significant hazard introduced directly by the AFISO, who after all is supposedly there to mitigate against such hazards.

There you go twisting my words again! :twisted:
Of course they shouldn't; the 'report lined up' is only used when there is already something obstructing the runway when the first aircraft at the hold is ready for departure.
If there is no obstruction, it should be possible to say 'TOYD' before the departure crosses the holding point.
User avatar
By Dave W
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1840709
chevvron wrote:There you go twisting my words again! :twisted:

Not even slightly.

You have consistently in this thread been the one talking about the FISO potentially managing ground traffic and taxying aircraft on the runway AFTER an aircraft has left the hold to prepare to take off.

Any twisting is most definitely not coming from me.
#1840726
I don't really want to add fuel to the fire here, but the Skyway Code is quite clear that 'take off at your discretion' is required before you cross the hold, but after that sole responsibility is with the pilot.
'land at your discretion' is stated not to be a clearance but, by implication, is a reminder to check that it's safe to land .
To me that means I'd continue happily without 'layd' if safe to do so.
I'm looking at p102 of the 2017 printed version.
#1840735
FlarePath wrote:Hopefully a simple question, after passing the hold and on the active, what "authority" does a FISO have over the the aircraft now? Forgetting about "humps,bumps" etc..


It is a simple question (and well worth asking :thumleft: ), and the simple answer is: "none".











...until they ask you to "report downwind" :roll:
#1840736
I find it's useful to give a visit to the tower having a chat with AG, AFIS and ATC and putting a face to the callsigns, everybody has their roles and no hard fellings

I recall flying to an AFIS airfield in low cloud-base, he mentioned weather was not good in airfield, I acknowledged and decided to continue, he was not happy with my answer, I informed that I will be flying a long finale, AFIS reminded I "should" join overhead, which felt like throwing curved balls, I doubt many aircrafts were in ATZ that day, I went and flew OHJ and circuit then long final (most of it was in clouds)

I went to tower after landing, I got a lecture on legal join procedures and he got a lecture on legal weather minima, I am not sure if an MOR was sent, but I learned something that day, one still need to fly OHJ even in IMC :lol:
#1840737
Ibra wrote:I find it's useful to give a visit to the tower having a chat with AG, AFIS and ATC and putting a face to the callsigns, everybody has their roles and no hard fellings

I recall flying to an AFIS airfield in low cloud-base, he mentioned weather was not good in airfield, I acknowledged and decided to continue, he was not happy with my answer, I informed that I will be flying a long finale, AFIS reminded I "should" join overhead, which felt like throwing curved balls, I doubt many aircrafts were in ATZ that day, I went and flew OHJ and circuit then long final (most of it was in clouds)

I went to tower after landing, I got a lecture on legal join procedures and he got a lecture on legal weather minima, I am not sure if an MOR was sent, but I learned something that day, one still need to fly OHJ even in IMC :lol:


Were you a VRF pilot?
#1840740
Rob L wrote:Were you a VRF pilot?


Back then I had IMCr rating and aircraft was IFR equiped, FISO was just not expecting visitors, the airfield is liceneced VFR only (what AIP says) but it was still VMC (700ft clouds & +10km visbility?)

Outside controlled airspace, one can fly VFR/IFR as they wish, it's just not FISO buisness (not even ATC buisness), but he felt the need to stop an inboud traffic from landing or join longue final
#1840746
Having read the whole thread I despair for anyone trying to learn in this environment.
Always remember that the aircraft commander carries the can and the chap(pess) on the ground whatever their title is there for your benefit not the other way round and cannot get hurt by their pronouncements but you could be.
#1840747
NigelC wrote: Always remember that the aircraft commander carries the can and the chap(pess) on the ground whatever their title is there for your benefit not the other way round and cannot get hurt by their pronouncements but you could be.


Sorry, but that always seems rather facile to me whenever it’s trotted out.
#1840749
Mike Tango wrote:
NigelC wrote: Always remember that the aircraft commander carries the can and the chap(pess) on the ground whatever their title is there for your benefit not the other way round and cannot get hurt by their pronouncements but you could be.


Sorry, but that always seems rather facile to me whenever it’s trotted out.


Mike Tango (and others): may I politely ask what "Land at Your Discretion" actually means? I don't mean in the legal sense; I mean in the English language sense. Why is the word "discretion" (which means judgement) used, when every landing I do needs my judgement, be it in charge of a 747 at Heathrow or in a Piper Cub at a private strip?
Rob L
#1840752
Rob L wrote:
Mike Tango (and others): may I politely ask what "Land at Your Discretion" actually means? I don't mean in the legal sense; I mean in the English language sense. Why is the word "discretion" (which means judgement) used, when every landing I do needs my judgement, be it in charge of a 747 at Heathrow or in a Piper Cub at a private strip?
Rob L


Good question. I’d guess that, whoever decided coming up with the idea of this half baked aerodrome control service that isn’t an aerodrome control service was a good idea then had to come up with a form of words to say that, as far as the person sat in the tower was concerned, there were no obvious reasons why you can’t land but, as they’re not allowed to use the ‘cleared’ word, discretion was substituted instead.

Be it full fat ATC or FISO the pilot will always be the one who decides on whether to actually land or not. Albeit in full fat ATC there will be occasions, such as low viz ops, when ATC are the only ones in the partnership who can be sure the runway is actually clear to land on when issuing the clearance.

Personally I’m not a fan of the aerodrome FISO concept. If it’s busy enough to justify ATC, it should have ATC. If it’s not let everyone get on with it themselves.

My facile comment is just my opinion whenever I see the likes of “ the chap(pess) on the ground whatever their title is there for your benefit not the other way round and cannot get hurt by their pronouncements but you could be.” being uttered.

Facile meaning ‘ignoring the true complexities of an issue; superficial.’
Last edited by Mike Tango on Thu Apr 15, 2021 11:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
By Human Factor
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1840753
You have a choice. Ok, you always have a choice but if it’s ATC, if you’re not cleared that choice may have consequences.

Interesting thought, if I’m at a FISO airfield and land with out even hearing the LAYD call, what law have I broken? If I want to land, I will land. End of discussion.

I’m a believer in AG or ATC. All or nothing in short.
flybymike, Rob L, FlarePath liked this
  • 1
  • 9
  • 10
  • 11
  • 12
  • 13
  • 15