Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
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User avatar
By foxmoth
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1769620
It's not 'land after' the FISO simply treats the formation as a single aircraft eg 'Blades Formation, land at your discretion'.


Unfortunately I think you will find the rules are that you can’t have more than one aircraft landing on one runway unless it is full ATC or you have an exemption (which I believe the Blades have). If you can show me otherwise I would be delighted but did a lot of work checking this, I could find the regs that say this but did enough trawling through the rules for this last year without repeatIng the exercise!
#1769623
Is it not true that once an aircraft has passed the runway holding point for an intended take off, they are not under the influence, control or instruction of a FISO?


This was the case but over the years FISO's have been allowed to give instructions like "Report Lined up" "Hold Position" etc, I was in the RH seat on a flight where having lined up and waited what seemed too long, the P1 took off and as the wheels left the ground the FISO called to say we departed without permission, the P1 declined on our return to "have it out" with the FISO.
#1769630
FlarePath wrote:
Is it not true that once an aircraft has passed the runway holding point for an intended take off, they are not under the influence, control or instruction of a FISO?


This was the case but over the years FISO's have been allowed to give instructions like "Report Lined up" "Hold Position" etc, I was in the RH seat on a flight where having lined up and waited what seemed too long, the P1 took off and as the wheels left the ground the FISO called to say we departed without permission, the P1 declined on our return to "have it out" with the FISO.

AFIS has become very messy, hasn't it...in fact I think it has become an utter shambles.....like a lot of other things: airspace policy, cartography, legislation, regulation, enforcement, FISOs controlling, AGCSOs FISO-ing, multiple alphabet organisations all pulling in different directions...etc etc. The plot is lost. I am now embarrassed to hold an AFISO licence. Maybe Blackbushe did me a favour firing me! As soon as this current nonsense is over I think I will 7000 non-radio into the sunset...a sort of aviation John Stonehouse...
FlarePath, flybymike, seanxair and 3 others liked this
#1769679
Rob L wrote:Ignoring formations for the moment, is there any such thing as "Take Off at Your Discretion" (if that's what you mean by TOYD?) Is it not true that once an aircraft has passed the runway holding point for an intended take off, they are not under the influence, control or instruction of a FISO?

Rob

You're a pilot and you have to ask a question like that? :twisted:
TOYD is normally passed to a pilot when they are at the last holding point before the runway and are at the front of the queue for departure.
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#1769680
FlarePath wrote:
This was the case but over the years FISO's have been allowed to give instructions like "Report Lined up" "Hold Position" etc, I was in the RH seat on a flight where having lined up and waited what seemed too long, the P1 took off and as the wheels left the ground the FISO called to say we departed without permission, the P1 declined on our return to "have it out" with the FISO.

It may have been 'safe' in this instance but in my opinion it's bad airmanship.
The FISO could have been planning to cross an aircraft or vehicle at an intermediate taxiway whilst you were lining up and by commencing takeoff without warning, your pilot could have caused an incident.
#1769687
GonzoEGLL wrote:I think that’s correct...also for Stansted I think? The same procedure was binned from LHR.

It’s still in operation at LHR AFAIK. The ICAO procedure mentions 2500m but of course the UK is different!
Within the United Kingdom, the conditions which must be met for a controller to utilise reduced separation are different from the PANS ATM criteria. A controller may issue a ‘land after’ clearance if:

The runway is long enough to allow safe separation between the two aircraft and there is no evidence to indicate that braking may be adversely affected;

It is during daylight hours;

The preceding landing aircraft is not required to backtrack in order to vacate the runway;

The controller is satisfied that the landing aircraft will be able to see the preceding aircraft which has landed, clearly and continuously, until it has vacated the runway; and

The pilot of the following aircraft is warned. Responsibility for ensuring adequate separation rests with the pilot of the following aircraft.
#1769691
malcolmfrost wrote:
GonzoEGLL wrote:I think that’s correct...also for Stansted I think? The same procedure was binned from LHR.

It’s still in operation at LHR AFAIK. The ICAO procedure mentions 2500m but of course the UK is different!
Within the United Kingdom, the conditions which must be met for a controller to utilise reduced separation are different from the PANS ATM criteria. A controller may issue a ‘land after’ clearance if:

The runway is long enough to allow safe separation between the two aircraft and there is no evidence to indicate that braking may be adversely affected;

It is during daylight hours;

The preceding landing aircraft is not required to backtrack in order to vacate the runway;

The controller is satisfied that the landing aircraft will be able to see the preceding aircraft which has landed, clearly and continuously, until it has vacated the runway; and

The pilot of the following aircraft is warned. Responsibility for ensuring adequate separation rests with the pilot of the following aircraft.


You’re quoting the ‘Land After’ procedure (which is effectively a ‘land at your discretion’ instruction) and not the ‘After the landed/departing xxx, cleared to land’ clearance. The former still exists and is a UK-wide procedure in MATS Part 1. The latter is airport specific and must be specifically approved by UK CAA.

The fact we got rid of the ICAO procedure and kept the UK-specific procedure still rankles.

(PS without wishing to go all Chevvron on you, I wrote the Supplementary Instruction for the EGLL MATS Part 2 withdrawing it from use!). :thumleft:
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#1769692
malcolmfrost wrote:It’s still in operation at LHR AFAIK

I think Gonzo is referring to the special 'after the preceding landing/departing cleared to land', as opposed to the bog-standard, last resort 'Land After' get-out. At one time the former was (I think) in use at Heathrow, Manchester, Gatwick and Stansted. It wasn't popular at Heathrow because it was such a mouthful, not enough time to say it, and there was a shed-load of conditions to remember.

Edit: Gonz ahead of me, as he always was...
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User avatar
By Dave W
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1769693
chevvron wrote:It may have been 'safe' in this instance but in my opinion it's bad airmanship.
The FISO could have been planning to cross an aircraft or vehicle at an intermediate taxiway whilst you were lining up and by commencing takeoff without warning, your pilot could have caused an incident.

AFISO either have the authority to control beyond the hold and give permission to take off, or they don't. And they don't.

Once an aircraft is beyond the hold at an 'Information' airfield the AFISO should consider the runway to belong to the aircraft. IMO it would be very poor "FISOship" indeed to plan to cross an aircraft or a vehicle in the way you describe.

In those circumstances the pilot would be blameless - the AFISO much less so.
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#1769695
Talkdownman wrote:
malcolmfrost wrote:It’s still in operation at LHR AFAIK

I think Gonzo is referring to the special 'after the preceding landing/departing cleared to land', as opposed to the bog-standard, last resort 'Land After' get-out. At one time the former was (I think) in use at Heathrow, Manchester, Gatwick and Stansted. It wasn't popular at Heathrow because it was such a mouthful, not enough time to say it, and there was a shed-load of conditions to remember.

Edit: Gonz ahead of me, as he always was...


I think your memory might be going! I’ve not caught up yet.
#1769699
You’re quoting the ‘Land After’ procedure (which is effectively a ‘land at your discretion’ instruction) and not the ‘After the landed/departing xxx, cleared to land’ clearance. The former still exists and is a UK-wide procedure in MATS Part 1. The latter is airport specific and must be specifically approved by UK CAA.

The fact we got rid of the ICAO procedure and kept the UK-specific procedure still rankles.

(PS without wishing to go all Chevvron on you, I wrote the Supplementary Instruction for the EGLL MATS Part 2 withdrawing it from use!). :thumleft:

All of which justifies my policy of always doing what UK controllers say as they are much better on the rules than me :D :D
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#1769700
GonzoEGLL wrote:
Talkdownman wrote:
malcolmfrost wrote:It’s still in operation at LHR AFAIK

I think Gonzo is referring to the special 'after the preceding landing/departing cleared to land', as opposed to the bog-standard, last resort 'Land After' get-out. At one time the former was (I think) in use at Heathrow, Manchester, Gatwick and Stansted. It wasn't popular at Heathrow because it was such a mouthful, not enough time to say it, and there was a shed-load of conditions to remember.

Edit: Gonz ahead of me, as he always was...


I think your memory might be going! I’ve not caught up yet.

His memory has already gone to Australia like John Stonehouse did. :twisted:
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