Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
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By GrahamB
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1840762
It would be interesting to compare the duties and responsibilities of UK FISOs and their French and German counterparts.

There must be some significant differences as we don’t seem to have difficulty accepting the concept in those countries.
johnm liked this
#1840766
When a FISO tells me to “Report lined up”. I take that to mean “I know you are at the hold and ready for departure but I can’t see the end of the runway from the tower so I’d like to know when you cross the hold so I can say take off at your discretion”.
As Pilot in Command I wouldn’t have crossed the hold unless I could see the runway was free of traffic as it’s my responsibility not the FISO. He/she can’t hold me once I’ve left the hold. If they want to hold me then that opportunity is when I’m at the runway hold. Once they release their control it’s going to be my head on the block if I hit something on the take off roll. Well that’s the logic of the rules, we all know that’s often not the case, like when a FISO wants to get you off a narrow taxiway to allow backtracking traffic to get off the runway. You’d get something like, “Enter Runway xx and pull over to the right to allow backtracking traffic to pass”.
Dominie liked this
#1840773
GrahamB wrote:It would be interesting to compare the duties and responsibilities of UK FISOs and their French and German counterparts.

There must be some significant differences as we don’t seem to have difficulty accepting the concept in those countries.


I can think of a couple of “Interesting” FISO’s in France, one at Troyes when they have IFR traffic approaching comes to mind and one at Nancy Essay when there was four flex wing micro lights in the circuit is another.
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By skydriller
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1840793
GrahamB wrote:It would be interesting to compare the duties and responsibilities of UK FISOs and their French and German counterparts.

There must be some significant differences as we don’t seem to have difficulty accepting the concept in those countries.


I suspect a good many pilots dont realise that the guy speaking english to them is not actually ATC...
#1840828
GrahamB wrote:It would be interesting to compare the duties and responsibilities of UK FISOs and their French and German counterparts.

There must be some significant differences as we don’t seem to have difficulty accepting the concept in those countries.


In France, unlike UK they don't control ground mouvements and don't give any sort of AD acess or PPR, most will certainly don't give a cent about how VFR flies around the area but they do some "babysitting" of flyers who are really lost (well there is no PPR but one still need to read AIP or VAC themsleves but many pilots will ask these as questions: circuit height, hand, joins as they usually confuse AFIS with ATC)

The busiest AFIS unit I know is Arcachon LFCH, they do enforce joining routes and will suggest to fly or taxi in some directions or advise if you can't, not sure if it's a special mandate but on a short 10min flight in sunny day between Arcachon & Bisscarosse, bellow 3000ff one could see all the following: fixed wings, aerobatics, parachuting, helicopters, gliders, microlights, flexwings, paragliders, hangliders, seaplanes, military jets, aeromodels and even drones on the taxiways... so I can understand why they have some pressure

The French AFIS could be a real pain if they have IFR-IFR/VFR-IFR conflicts or some heavy CAT airliner arrivals, even if it's just two traffic in CAVOK under E or G arispace, they get very concerned and busy...

If you have an FPL, they will ask you to close it or edit if they don't like to be on your back all the time or just don't like what you do (scenic low tour of coast VFR, 1000ft agl circuits on IFR...)
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By Flyin'Dutch'
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1840835
In Germany anyone with a licence can do it, no additional training required.

Have as yet not encountered a 'controlling' fiso over here. No doubt there will be one/some but on the whole not an issue, as the driver you tell them what you are doing, they stick to the 'information' bit of the job. That includes reminding you not to land before the displaced threshold, that there's gliding to the north etc.

Never yet read a discussion on interference by a fiso, or the delights of the overhead join.

Less is more!
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By foxmoth
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1841102
chevvron wrote:
foxmoth wrote:We are talking about FISOs here - I think you will find that “Land after” is only allowed at fields with a full Air Traffic service, the same generally for formation landings.
It IS actually possible to do formation landings at fields without full ATC but this requires an exemption from the CAA.

It's not 'land after' the FISO simply treats the formation as a single aircraft eg 'Blades Formation, land at your discretion'.


I was not saying that a formation is “Land after”, that is for an aircraft landing after another as at LGW. What I was saying is that for formations you need either full ATC or a CAA exemption (which I think you will find the Blades have)
#1841110
TLRippon wrote:When a FISO tells me to “Report lined up”. I take that to mean “I know you are at the hold and ready for departure but I can’t see the end of the runway from the tower so I’d like to know when you cross the hold so I can say take off at your discretion”.

At Fairoaks, in a 'normal' light aircraft you cannot see the far end of the runway from either the holding point or when lined up but the FISO can hence the use of 'the runway is occupied, report lined up' in order to expedite your departure.
If a FISO at ANY unit cannot physically see the end of either runway, the CAA will require them to use some form of 'help' such as CCTV or by positioning a holding point further from the runway where it can be seen by the FISO.
The view from new build FISO towers must enable the FISO to see the full length of all runways, taxiways and aprons and this view must be 'protected' from future developments, hence the reason that in the thread about Rochester developments some time ago, I was dubious as to whether the view from the new FISO tower being adequate to fulfil this.
kanga liked this
#1841327
foxmoth wrote:
chevvron wrote:
foxmoth wrote:We are talking about FISOs here - I think you will find that “Land after” is only allowed at fields with a full Air Traffic service, the same generally for formation landings.
It IS actually possible to do formation landings at fields without full ATC but this requires an exemption from the CAA.

It's not 'land after' the FISO simply treats the formation as a single aircraft eg 'Blades Formation, land at your discretion'.


I was not saying that a formation is “Land after”, that is for an aircraft landing after another as at LGW. What I was saying is that for formations you need either full ATC or a CAA exemption (which I think you will find the Blades have)


A bit off topic, if you have ATC ATZ in Class G, before getting formation landing clearance, do you also need split/join clearance? this seems to be the case for formation transits of Class D with radar ATC, one will have to request split/join and maintain 0.5nm/100ft all the times while in formation

We had a chance to try at Lands End but the arrival was fiasco and they had Twin Otters inbound, so each aircraft just made it's own RT call and join/land
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By foxmoth
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1841345
Ibra wrote:
A bit off topic, if you have ATC ATZ in Class G, before getting formation landing clearance, do you also need split/join clearance? this seems to be the case for formation transits of Class D with radar ATC, one will have to request split/join and maintain 0.5nm/100ft all the times while in formation

We had a chance to try at Lands End but the arrival was fiasco and they had Twin Otters inbound, so each aircraft just made it's own RT call and join/land


The restriction is more than one aircraft landing at the same time so you can rejoin as a formation - we would ideally come back into the circuit in echelon and do a run in and break down the runway, unfortunately Barton are not happy with that so we come back in formation and break to descend individually on the dead side at which point we adopt individual callsigns for the downwind call.
Ibra liked this
#1841372
Ibra wrote:A bit off topic, if you have ATC ATZ in Class G, before getting formation landing clearance, do you also need split/join clearance? this seems to be the case for formation transits of Class D with radar ATC, one will have to request split/join and maintain 0.5nm/100ft all the times while in formation

Try getting the red arrows to do that :twisted:
Once you are 'accepted' as a formation, (in the form of a reply to your initial call from the ATSU 'XXX formation pass your message') you should be treated as a single aircraft by both ATCOs and FISOs although I have to admit some ATCOs/FISOs seem to be unaware of this as it happens so rarely at their airfield.
Ibra liked this
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By Flyin'Dutch'
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1841378
chevvron wrote:Once you are 'accepted' as a formation, (in the form of a reply to your initial call from the ATSU 'XXX formation pass your message') you should be treated as a single aircraft by both ATCOs and FISOs although I have to admit some ATCOs/FISOs seem to be unaware of this as it happens so rarely at their airfield.


From this thread it would seem there are even FISOs who don't know the rules for things that happen every day.

Just saying
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