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Basic Instrument Flying Course

PostPosted:Wed May 13, 2020 9:19 am
by Danny
Hi all,

I note that students can do a 15 hour CPL course rather than a 25 hour one if they hold a course completion certificate (CCC) for the Basic Instrument Flying Module. Being in the final throes of my ATPL theory exams I am looking towards the practical training and would like to ask advice on the following :-

1. Is it commonplace that training organisations offer this as a stand-alone course? If so, any recommendations in the south of England?

2. I have been unable to find if this course has any pre-quisites to entry, perhaps because it may require the same exams as the full IR due to being the initial part of the full IR? My ATPLs are not yet completed so wouldn't count I don't think. Any thoughts?

3. A Course Completion Certificate is required for the reduction of hours. Are all establishments that do the training able to issue this?

The reason I'm asking is that if I could do this during the tail end of my ATPL studies it would give me a bit of a head start on the CPL before actually starting it.

Other than grade 5 piano I have no instrument-related qualifications whatsoever such as IMC, IR(R) etc.

It seems so simple that I MUST be missing something..

For the purposes of this post I'm not considering the current virus-related situation.

Any advice appreciated,

Danny

Re: Basic Instrument Flying Course

PostPosted:Wed May 13, 2020 9:34 am
by Josh
As a general point, the more instrument/multi experience you have before your IR test, the easier it will be. Back in the mists of time, I did an IMC early on both to make sure I was good enough at instrument flying to make it a realistic ambition and to start getting some real experience. I also did my CPL in a multi and did a combined CPL/MEP Test. This meant when I came to my IR I was completely comfortable in the aircraft which was largely second nature, and the only thing my brain was working hard at was the instrument flying.

This all contributed towards a first time IR pass which I think will be critical in the hiring environment likely to prevail when this is all over. Back in 2010ish when hiring started slowly, a first time (not first series) IR pass and a pretty spotless ATPL record was required even to get to an interview so plan your training carefully. Nobody looks at whether you did it in bang minimum hours, but your skills tests are crucial.

Re: Basic Instrument Flying Course

PostPosted:Wed May 13, 2020 9:56 am
by MattL
Some ATOs can offer a IR(R) course and issue a BIFM CCC as part of that course if they are so approved. DTOs cannot offer the BIFM.

It is not really a saving as if you are doing CPL + IR modular route you need to do the BIFM as either part of the CPL or the IR - the total hours for CPL + IR are the same no matter what order / where you take the credit.

Re: Basic Instrument Flying Course

PostPosted:Wed May 13, 2020 11:25 am
by Danny
Thanks for the quick replies guys, much appreciated. Some pertinent thoughts there Josh which I'll certainly take on board. Also thanks Matt for that info about the CCC as part of an IR(R), I'll certainly look into that as per Josh's advice. Just to clarify, I'm not really looking to cut down on the number of actual flying hours, rather it's that I'm keen to start some relevant flying training that will count towards licence issue whilst finishing off my ATPL exams and unable to start a CPL proper. Again I'm completely ignoring any virus stuff for the sake of my sanity!

Re: Basic Instrument Flying Course

PostPosted:Wed May 13, 2020 11:35 am
by Bathman
Your best saving would be to do an IMC rating rating and a CBIR.

Re: Basic Instrument Flying Course

PostPosted:Wed May 13, 2020 1:10 pm
by Danny
Hi, yes I would probably go down that route with an ATO that could confirm I would get a course completion certificate from the IR(r), which in turn would be countable towards the full CBIR later on as you say.

Re: Basic Instrument Flying Course

PostPosted:Wed May 13, 2020 3:10 pm
by Bathman
To get a BIFM you will need to go to an ATO with CPL/IR approval. The costs of holding such approval both directly and indirectly isn't cheap therefore the rate that you pay will be the same rate as for CPL/IR training.

It would be cheaper to do the full IMC rating at your local DTO.

Re: Basic Instrument Flying Course

PostPosted:Wed May 13, 2020 6:53 pm
by Instructor Errant
Bathman wrote:It would be cheaper to do the full IMC rating at your local DTO.


Great suggestion @Bathman

Or just go to an independent IRI :whistle:

As you rightly say the training hours for the IMC/IR(R) can be credited towards those required for the issue of an IR via the CB-IR training route no ATO, DTO or BIFM certificate required at all.

Re: Basic Instrument Flying Course

PostPosted:Wed May 13, 2020 8:13 pm
by MattL
@Instructor Errant There is a slight trap there though in that you then have to do the IR course and have it issued and valid before completing the CPL otherwise you will not get the credit (as you don't have a BIFM CCC). IF you are doing ME IR it gets more complicated with sequencing the MEP as well.

Re: Basic Instrument Flying Course

PostPosted:Wed May 13, 2020 10:01 pm
by Edward Bellamy
Danny is there a reason you don't just do the IR before the CPL? I think most people do it that way these days.

You could do the BIFM, but by the time you have done that and finished your ATPLs you might as well finish the IR rather than start on the CPL?

Re: Basic Instrument Flying Course

PostPosted:Wed May 13, 2020 10:09 pm
by Instructor Errant
@MattL

I don’t see that as a trap, I see it as extra flexibility. Another and perhaps more cost effective way would be to complete MEP then IR, via the CB-IR route (making sure you complete the extra 5 hours and an ME-IR IRT) then the CPL last of all, benefitting from the reduce CPL minimum hours. There is nothing to say which order the qualifications/ratings need to be done. As long as the ATPL TK is completed then the HPA element is covered so the CB-IR will be issued without the non-HPA caveat which would otherwise be the case. The student I teach IR to are following this path or intend to.

That’s the beauty of the flexibility of the CB-IR training route.

Edited to add that @Edward Bellamy posting and mine crossed, Ed is spot on.

Re: Basic Instrument Flying Course

PostPosted:Thu May 14, 2020 6:44 am
by MattL
@Instructor Errant @Edward Bellamy

I don’t disagree, but in these times doing IR and MEP first means someone is saddled with keeping both those current at some cost. Whereas do a SE CPL and you have it done, there is no recurrent burden and you can attack the expensive MEP and IR when job market picks up (noting exam periods).

Also some low hours modular candidates doing CB IR have found the need to do extra hours in an expensive MEP at an ATO to get to test standard. for some the more structured ‘normal’ IR route with extensive sim time may be more likely to get a pass in min hours.

Not disagreeing with you, just considerations for people

Re: Basic Instrument Flying Course

PostPosted:Thu May 14, 2020 7:42 am
by SteveC
As a school that specialises in this..... We always do the IR before the CPL. The BIFM is just the first 10hrs of the IR. The IMC does not count towards the IR training without going a very very convoluted route that’s not worth the hassle. If you are going professional then employers want to see that you have been trained in a standard environment..

When we do the training we do BIFM, IR, MEP and then CPL. All the paperwork is submitted to be processed in one go.

The CB IR might seem like a shorter route and certainly for high time IFR pilots it’s a good conversion path but you still have to reach the IR test standard and experience is constantly showing that people following the circuitous IMC and CBM route take many more hours to actually achieve the standard. As an IRE the highest number of partials and fails I give are to candidates following this route. The IR test is the most difficult you will take in aviation.

The CPL test after the IR is a doddle and one of the reasons we do the IR first as proper IR training will leave you at the top of your game.

Re: Basic Instrument Flying Course

PostPosted:Thu May 14, 2020 8:56 am
by Josh
SteveC wrote: The IR test is the most difficult you will take in aviation.

The CPL test after the IR is a doddle and one of the reasons we do the IR first as proper IR training will leave you at the top of your game.


Fascinating to see how things have switched round over the past decade or so.

I used to say the single pilot IR was the hardest thing in civil aviation until I did my command course :shock:

Re: Basic Instrument Flying Course

PostPosted:Thu May 14, 2020 12:56 pm
by SteveC
Josh wrote:
SteveC wrote: The IR test is the most difficult you will take in aviation.

The CPL test after the IR is a doddle and one of the reasons we do the IR first as proper IR training will leave you at the top of your game.


Fascinating to see how things have switched round over the past decade or so.

I used to say the single pilot IR was the hardest thing in civil aviation until I did my command course :shock:



Come and do your single pilot ME/IR Skill test again and let me be the judge...... :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: