Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
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#1771534
derekf wrote:
TLRippon wrote:When it's safe. Which in this country it isn't now according to the DfT. Perhaps Spain is different.


Well the DfT must have been involved in allowing commercial flight training to resume in UK...



Show me?
#1771536
SteveC wrote:
TLRippon wrote:
Miscellaneous wrote:Wonder what he meant by his statement.

Irrespective sacrificing the economy does not come without human consequences beyond those of CV19. It may shift the price paid to a different demographic though.

Why search for an ideal answer to a problem for which there isn't one? Accept the only way forward is compromise and get on with it. :D


Because I'd still want all my staff to be alive at the end of it. (Sorry, speaking as staff nowadays).

This won't go on forever but I guess there are competitive advantages in being first out.


Its nothing about a competitive advantage. Its a pure and simple fact, if we wait any longer we won't be here for people to have jobs. People need to eat, pay bills and keep a roof over their heads. They have to earn money to do so. Without exception every single member of staff has stated they want to get back to work ASAP. Nobody is being pressurised and the message is clear that if they have any reservations then stay at home.

The governments here and the other countries have cleared us to get back to work so we are.

You can feel free to stay at home as long as you like....... :wink:


You are kind of making my point for me.
#1771541
TLRippon wrote:
SteveC wrote:
TLRippon wrote:
Because I'd still want all my staff to be alive at the end of it. (Sorry, speaking as staff nowadays).

This won't go on forever but I guess there are competitive advantages in being first out.


Its nothing about a competitive advantage. Its a pure and simple fact, if we wait any longer we won't be here for people to have jobs. People need to eat, pay bills and keep a roof over their heads. They have to earn money to do so. Without exception every single member of staff has stated they want to get back to work ASAP. Nobody is being pressurised and the message is clear that if they have any reservations then stay at home.

The governments here and the other countries have cleared us to get back to work so we are.

You can feel free to stay at home as long as you like....... :wink:


You are kind of making my point for me.


I have no idea what your point is? You want to sit at home and that’s good for you. I assume you have independent means or are being paid to sit on your ass.

Unfortunately people need to pay their bills and feed their families and keep a roof over their heads. That means they need jobs and if their jobs no longer exist how exactly do you propose they do this?

The government has clearly stated go back to work if you can’t work from home. So we are.

You can sit in your cave afraid of your own shadow as long as you want. The rest of us have to be pragmatic and try and stave off ruin.
Flyingfemme liked this
#1771546
TLRippon wrote:
derekf wrote:
TLRippon wrote:When it's safe. Which in this country it isn't now according to the DfT. Perhaps Spain is different.


Well the DfT must have been involved in allowing commercial flight training to resume in UK...



Show me?


The following was posted by Martin Robinson CEO of IAOPA.

Hi Martin,

Yes, organisations that are training pilots for their CPL and any associated ratings can now resume that training on the basis that they are supporting the sustainment of critical worker availability in the context of the current crisis. However, they should not at this stage undertake recreational PPL training or other activity that does not directly support the training of critical workers for commercial air transport roles (such as additional ratings for recreational pilots).

I know that it goes without saying, but they should strive to apply social distancing measures as far as is practicable whilst providing that training.

Have a great weekend.
Kind regards,
Jim
kanga liked this
#1771547
SteveC wrote:You can sit in your cave afraid of your own shadow as long as you want. The rest of us have to be pragmatic and try and stave off ruin.


SteveC you are still making the assumption that everything is going to go back to how it was. Yes, we need to get the economy going, but it isn't going to be the same shape that it used to be. You can shout "come on chaps let's get climbing the tree again!" as much as you like, but it won't do you, or all your 300 colleagues, any good at all if it's the wrong tree.

And talking of shadows and caves, you might Google what Plato thought about how we see reality...
#1771549
That’s not what I have suggested at all. However we do NEED to get back to work in some form. We are adapting and working with the issues not hiding and criticising others on the internet.

We can’t afford to sit at home and do nothing any longer. People are literally running out of money to pay bills and buy food. The companies are running out of cash and if they don’t exist where do the jobs come from?

If you and Mr Rippon want to fund us all while we confirm to your view of what we should be doing I will send you an address to send the cheques. A million a month should just about tide us over until you are happy we can go back to work.
#1771552
SteveC wrote:That’s not what I have suggested at all. However we do NEED to get back to work in some form. We are adapting and working with the issues not hiding and criticising others on the internet.

We can’t afford to sit at home and do nothing any longer. People are literally running out of money to pay bills and buy food. The companies are running out of cash and if they don’t exist where do the jobs come from?

If you and Mr Rippon want to fund us all while we confirm to your view of what we should be doing I will send you an address to send the cheques. A million a month should just about tide us over until you are happy we can go back to work.


To be honest Steve, I actually care for your well-being and that of your staff and fellow instructors. I have not suggested anywhere you shouldn't go back to work. I am suggesting that in all your posts you have clearly put the financial imperative at the forefront of your decision making. I guess that's your style and that's fine.
Just to correct your assumptions: Yes I'm at home. I work in the non commercial flight school sector where we are not allowed to operate. I'm self employed but not for long enough to qualify for any government handouts and no, I'm not independently wealthy.
#1771553
Come on guys give Steve C a break. He’s not suggesting everything will be as before but is stating a stark reality - either training restarts or there will be no business for many. For those that freelance doing some CRI or indi FI work, it’s probably not an issue but for businesses with real estate and aircraft it is quite the opposite. The bills don’t stop. The calendar hasn’t stopped so annuals still need paying for as do the myriad of other peripheral costs.

Life isn’t without risk and everything is a balance of risk. The risk of dying from COVID or even having to be hospitalised is still very small for the vast majority. Make you own judgement on where the balance is but let others make theirs. Unless you have some expert insight, which seems unlikely given the lack of consensus across the scientific body, your decision is just your take.

Nobody can be compelled to fly but those that are happy to do so shouldn’t be prevented by those with a different risk threashold.
SteveC liked this
#1771555
TLRippon wrote:
SteveC wrote:That’s not what I have suggested at all. However we do NEED to get back to work in some form. We are adapting and working with the issues not hiding and criticising others on the internet.

We can’t afford to sit at home and do nothing any longer. People are literally running out of money to pay bills and buy food. The companies are running out of cash and if they don’t exist where do the jobs come from?

If you and Mr Rippon want to fund us all while we confirm to your view of what we should be doing I will send you an address to send the cheques. A million a month should just about tide us over until you are happy we can go back to work.


To be honest Steve, I actually care for your well-being and that of your staff and fellow instructors. I have not suggested anywhere you shouldn't go back to work. I am suggesting that in all your posts you have clearly put the financial imperative at the forefront of your decision making. I guess that's your style and that's fine.
Just to correct your assumptions: Yes I'm at home. I work in the non commercial flight school sector where we are not allowed to operate. I'm self employed but not for long enough to qualify for any government handouts and no, I'm not independently wealthy.


I suspect that you don’t care for my well being at all. I suspect more that you have an element of the green eyed monster that you have no work and you have a fear of returning to work and that us doing so probably pisses you of dearly.......

I care deeply for the welfare of my staff and the survival of the company that I have worked for for the last 14 years. The financial imperative is indeed now at the forefront of my decision making because the staff can longer afford to sit at home and the company can’t survive if we don’t start again.

As longfinal states we still have fixed costs that have to be paid and they are not sustainable without income. So what do we do, just sit and wait until you think it’s OK for us to go back to work? Or do we adapt and start back the best we can? The former will leave hundreds of people unemployed.......
Alt2000 liked this
#1771561
I think we should be supportive and keen to watch the commercial schools.

They have the resources, organisation and control of personnel involved to explore methods and processes for resuming safe flight training.

With their success and build up of evidence, it can help feed the safe restart for GA recreational training.
kanga liked this
#1771591
From CAA GA Unit, emailed yesterday (Fri 22 May):

"CAA podcast shares tips for pilots preparing to return to GA flying post COVID-19

CAA On Air – Episode 4 – Safety advice and tips for pilots returning to GA flying post COVID-19

Jonathan Nicholson and David Pratt talk to Hannah Foskett and Neil Winbolt from the CAA’s General Aviation unit about about how to prepare to return to the air after a longer than usual break from recreational flying.

Additional information has been published as www.caa.co.uk/CAP1919 and www.caa.co.uk/CAP1925"

Podcast link:



https://caa.us4.list-manage.com/track/c ... cc952d8610
Dave W liked this
#1771604
SteveC » 22 May 2020 20:49
However we do NEED to get back to work in some form. We are adapting and working with the issues not hiding and criticising others on the internet.

We can’t afford to sit at home and do nothing any longer. People are literally running out of money to pay bills and buy food. The companies are running out of cash and if they don’t exist where do the jobs come from?

Agreed- but why does the permission to restart flying training just apply to “Professional” courses?

Nobody has to sit in an aircraft with anybody else if they don’t want to- but it would be nice for all of us to have the choice.

From a safety perspective, two people sitting in an aircraft are not protected from the Corona virus because they are on one course rather than another.
They are protected by PPE, disinfection, an understanding of viral transmission and symptoms - and a social responsibility to look after the health of others as we look after our own.
The level of safety achieved depends on how seriously people apply or understand the rules.
Surely this concept can be applied to any level of training?

For me, flying dual is either safe or it is not safe.
And if it is safe for one course...............
#1771612
Skybluepink wrote:
SteveC » 22 May 2020 20:49
However we do NEED to get back to work in some form. We are adapting and working with the issues not hiding and criticising others on the internet.

We can’t afford to sit at home and do nothing any longer. People are literally running out of money to pay bills and buy food. The companies are running out of cash and if they don’t exist where do the jobs come from?

Agreed- but why does the permission to restart flying training just apply to “Professional” courses?

Nobody has to sit in an aircraft with anybody else if they don’t want to- but it would be nice for all of us to have the choice.

From a safety perspective, two people sitting in an aircraft are not protected from the Corona virus because they are on one course rather than another.
They are protected by PPE, disinfection, an understanding of viral transmission and symptoms - and a social responsibility to look after the health of others as we look after our own.
The level of safety achieved depends on how seriously people apply or understand the rules.
Surely this concept can be applied to any level of training?

For me, flying dual is either safe or it is not safe.
And if it is safe for one course...............


I absolutely agree. But I have to work with the tools we are given and follow the rules. We are doing so. In Spain we can do PPL training as they are not differentiating between any courses as they quite rightly see the risk as being equal. We have put in place his mitigation that the Spanish authorities are happy for all training. We have used the same measures for the UK for professional training. We will continue to follow and adopt all of the guidance given to us and get the doors open as soon as possible. My guys in Spain are working there asses off to be ready and as safe we can humanly be.

Nothing is going to be like it was before, we have to learn to adapt and overcome and I will be doing my absolute best to keep people in jobs as we do so.
kanga liked this
#1771625
SteveC wrote:I care deeply for the welfare of my staff and the survival of the company that I have worked for for the last 14 years. The financial imperative is indeed now at the forefront of my decision making because the staff can longer afford to sit at home and the company can’t survive if we don’t start again.

As longfinal states we still have fixed costs that have to be paid and they are not sustainable without income. So what do we do, just sit and wait until you think it’s OK for us to go back to work? Or do we adapt and start back the best we can? The former will leave hundreds of people unemployed.......


Things need to start moving again. I'm in a similar position to you, approximately 100 jobs on the line and even with everyone furloughed it's still costing far more than I can possibly afford to keep paying the bills like this indefinitely. The business interruption insurance I pay for that covers pandemics was supposed to worth £1.5m, and I discovered that they'd turned the claim down based on "Force majeure". I will be taking legal action.

The reality is we might never find an effective vaccine. If we don't are we just supposed to shut the country down permanently?

We have to remember that several clinical vaccine trials for the HIV (virus) started in 1987, and we still don't have an effective vaccine for that. SARS clinical trials began in 2003-2004, and there is no vaccine for that either. This is another strain of SARS. A lot of effort is going into a vaccine, as the world is focusing on it. However, there's no guarantee one will be found.

We need to be pragmatic about this and look at workable solutions to reopen. Hopefully, with track and trace, social distancing will become less of a requirement, and this will allow anyone who wants to get airborne again.

Luckily I was able to fly in the last week, and it was the first taste of normality I've had since March.
SteveC, Alt2000, skydriller liked this
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