[Charles Hunt]

We get in a pickle about all sorts of things in the UK.

[Just noticed the l key is right next to the k, so that might explain things.]

[Genghis the Engineer]

Well yes, that is down to the fundamental difference in the two countries airspace structures.

Hands up anybody who prefers UK airspace structures to US however...

G

[CAT4R4TTA]

I don't get why when airborne you should pickup an IFR over the phone and not over the radio?

In the air you’d use the radio, on the ground before departure your phone.

Ian

Oh yes that makes sense...I thought you were using the phone when airborne...which can be done surely, but seems a worse option than via radio

[CAT4R4TTA]

There is *an* issue here, and whether the USA or UK is superior is a matter of opinion. In the UK it is legal and acceptable to be IFR without a clearance. In the USA it is not, hence to get airborne and climb into clag in America is breaking a bunch of rules - you can consider that a nuisance, but the system ensures that no other IFR traffic is cleared into that bit of airspace at the time of your departure.

G

Not exactly true; if you take off and fly in G space even in the US you do not need a clearance. Having said that there aren't many of those around. Mainly in Alaska if I remember correctly

[Genghis the Engineer]

True - but as you say, you really do have to search hard to find any class G above 1200ft in the USA outside of Alaska.

G

[CAT4R4TTA]

True - but as you say, you really do have to search hard to find any class G above 1200ft in the USA outside of Alaska.

G

...and I would add "Thanks FAA for that!!!"

I wish it was the same here, at least in terms of coverage and how easy is IFR flying

[Genghis the Engineer]

It's twofold there isn't it. Pretty much everything in the USA sits under 1200ft class E - but also pretty much everywhere is in reach of a tower that'll provide IFR control.

The UK gets both of these things wrong. Massively restrictive and over-complex airspace, and lack of control capability.

G

[CAT4R4TTA]

It's twofold there isn't it. Pretty much everything in the USA sits under 1200ft class E - but also pretty much everywhere is in reach of a tower that'll provide IFR control.

The UK gets both of these things wrong. Massively restrictive and over-complex airspace, and lack of control capability.

G

Indeed the lack of control (cap)ability is an issue.

But then you talk to pilots and they're happy because "...hey...is the UK way...", innit?

[Genghis the Engineer]

You really know any pilots familiar with both the UK and US airspace environments who prefer the British way of doing things?

G

[Mike Tango]

There are undoubtedly things UK ATC could do better with the political will and appropriate funding, but never forget that one rather significant reason it is just that bit better in the USA is...

[CAT4R4TTA]

Do you mind if I disagree?

Italy, to say one, is same size of the UK and there is perfect coverage everywhere. Switzerland is way smaller...same. France is way bigger...same.

I don't think size matters really. Is just that really ATC service is generally very poor in this country. Don't ask me the reason, cause I don't know. Just lack of funding? Maybe...anyway it should be better in terms of quality, which would make it better in terms of safety.

Please correct me if I'm wrong

[Mike Tango]

UK ATC in the form of the largest ANSP provides really a very good to excellent service to those users that the system’s upper echelons and masters consider ’the customer’ in the brave new world that followed the sell off and PPP.

Conversely it is probably fair to say it provides the bare minimum it can get away with to users at the smaller end of the spectrum.

The root cause? Money. It is limited, likely to get even more so imminently and there is no political will to do anything different. And, well, also of course the fact that all users are not considered equal.

Nothing can really change significantly to airspace or infrastructure that will benefit light GA with the current setup. Wish away, but it’s just not going to happen.

Just my pessimistic opinion.

p.s. oh, and having lots of space available, in the world of ATC, really does make things a lot easier.

[CAT4R4TTA]

Just my pessimistic opinion.

Realistic opinion.

I am not a professional pilot, and I assume if I ask a BA captain he's delighted with the service...and rightly so.

From a GA standpoint...ehm...I would make some minor change

[AlanC]

There is often a big gap between inside CAS and OCAS treatment in the UK. From a perspective of operating GA/training in both areas and likewise in much of Europe, UK ATC generally has some of the best people but often operating in a congested system. Blanket Class E would certainly help with some capacity, but might also make the flying side a bit trickier initially - and as others have said, who pays for the extra ATC cover? Switzerland does indeed have better coverage, but also worked much harder to confuse me and then attempt to cause an Airprox in the space of 20 minutes. I've never had a UK ATCO expect me to deviate from a radar heading because it went past my next waypoint/track change, so hearing a Swiss ATCO tell me "yes, I know I put you on a heading, but I expected you to turn anyway" was a slight surprise!

On the other hand, getting seamless airways joins from AFISOs in much of Europe is rather nice. But again, who pays...

[Adrian]

The telephone clearance system works in the same way at my home base in France where there’s no local radio service. There’s just one difference: the telephone number you need to call isn’t published anywhere, and I only got it by asking a local pilot how anyone could depart IFR with hills all around and class C airspace overhead. He took pity on me, and told me not to share the number too widely...