Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
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By chevvron
#1751561
Lefty wrote:Can you guys not read the messages that are being sent? You keep asking questions that you REALLY don’t want to know the answer to - if you want to fly.

Only the pilot knows the weather where he / his aircraft is.
Enough - stop there.

I seem to remember a notice from the CAA years ago saying that where weather minima is defined in a CTR it should be taken as whatever is being given on the current METAR for the airfield which controls the CTR thus for all airfields with ATZs wholly or partly within the Heathrow CTR for instance, the visibility/ceiling should be that being given by Heathrow.
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By PaulB
#1751566
Why would they need to do that before SERA? Even if they did, it'd be so easy to demonstrate the fallacy of such a suggestion.
By Skylaunch2
#1751567
chevvron wrote:
ChrisRowland wrote:If we get refused access then we should report it. If we divert west the gliders at Lasham could be a problem and if we have near misses we should report it.

Don't forget the cable hazard at Lasham too. :guns:


Worth noting that Lasham has invested heavily in briefing it's entire membership and has spent a huge amount of money re-equipping with conspicuity kit over the winter. There will also be a FlarmNet re-broadcasting system for those using Pilot Aware etc. Lasham will raise NOTAMs on it's busier than usual gliding days and has a new well prepared reporting culture in place to deal with any noticeable hazards as a result of CAS. Same applies to the Large Jet IFR operation who are working hand in hand on this issue with the Gliders.

If in doubt, the Lasham frequency is always there to use. Better a quick blind call than a fast moving aircraft hit by a cable. Lasham is routinely active even in marginal VFR/IFR conditions.
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By AlanM
#1751572
chevvron wrote:
Lefty wrote:Can you guys not read the messages that are being sent? You keep asking questions that you REALLY don’t want to know the answer to - if you want to fly.

Only the pilot knows the weather where he / his aircraft is.
Enough - stop there.

I seem to remember a notice from the CAA years ago saying that where weather minima is defined in a CTR it should be taken as whatever is being given on the current METAR for the airfield which controls the CTR thus for all airfields with ATZs wholly or partly within the Heathrow CTR for instance, the visibility/ceiling should be that being given by Heathrow.


Chevvers. Please do keep up!

Having worked with you I see what you can offer here.

Those comments are a little detrimental to what you can offer.

Sorry mate!
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By ChrisRowland
#1751591
What this seems to mean is that if refused access to the FB Class D our best option is to divert to the West, change to the Lasham frequency and squawk 7000. This way we can maintain some situational awareness.

Lasham isn't an ATC unit, it isn't manned by ATCOs and can't do more than give a rough idea of what traffic is around.

If it was fit for me to fly I'd assume that the Lasham winch launching is active and would not fly over the airfield. I'd do so regardless of what response I got from Lasham.

Or would it be better to remain on the FB frequency and listening squawk?

If the weather was good enough for significant soaring at Lasham then a VMC transit through the Class D would be preferable.
By Skylaunch2
#1751628
ChrisRowland wrote:What this seems to mean is that if refused access to the FB Class D our best option is to divert to the West, change to the Lasham frequency and squawk 7000. This way we can maintain some situational awareness.

Lasham isn't an ATC unit, it isn't manned by ATCOs and can't do more than give a rough idea of what traffic is around.

If it was fit for me to fly I'd assume that the Lasham winch launching is active and would not fly over the airfield. I'd do so regardless of what response I got from Lasham.

Or would it be better to remain on the FB frequency and listening squawk?

If the weather was good enough for significant soaring at Lasham then a VMC transit through the Class D would be preferable.


I think you've taken it a bit literally, it is quite possible to briefly leave the radar frequency and "Report back on frequency" in perhaps the situation in poor weather where you are forced to fly in close proximity to Lasham e.g within 1.5 miles and below 2000ft, perhaps very close to the circuit (scenario happened last week) then it may help situational awareness and it's then on the tapes. That way you may pick up at least some information that Farnborough doesn't have, E.G One of the King Airs getting airborne.

90% of the time this shouldn't be required and if you're able to keep a safe margin then by all means do what you suggest, but regardless of ATZ, I would strongly advise against being in noticeably close proximity to the circuit without being on a relevant frequency for an airfield.
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By Talkdownman
#1751630
ChrisRowland wrote:our best option is to divert to the West, change to the Lasham frequency and squawk 7000. This way we can maintain some situational awareness.

Lasham isn't an ATC unit, it isn't manned by ATCOs and can't do more than give a rough idea of what traffic is around

Being an 'air sports' frequency I doubt that the Lasham launch-point radio operators even have ROCCs. No way is it AGCS, and neither can there be any expectation of traffic information. I think they have quite enough to do managing the launch communications. Probably best to leave them alone and avoid the overhead and (what should be) a G circle.
By Skylaunch2
#1751632
Talkdownman wrote:
ChrisRowland wrote:our best option is to divert to the West, change to the Lasham frequency and squawk 7000. This way we can maintain some situational awareness.

Lasham isn't an ATC unit, it isn't manned by ATCOs and can't do more than give a rough idea of what traffic is around

Being an 'air sports' frequency I doubt that the Lasham launch-point radio operators even have ROCCs. No way is it AGCS, and neither can there be any expectation of traffic information. I think they have quite enough to do managing the launch communications. Probably best to leave them alone and avoid the overhead and (what should be) a G circle.


Exactly. This was not about blocking up the Lasham Frequency with pointless calls. This is about the already proven scenario of an aircraft forced through the circuit due to Wx making themselves known by a blind call. Takes 20 seconds and anyone flying past a notable unlicensed aerodrome should be doing so.
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By chrisbl
#1752155
chrisbl wrote:
Talkdownman wrote:That's not the way to deal with VFR traffic. When issuing instructions to VFR flights, controllers should be aware of the overriding requirements for the pilot to remain in VMC. Assigning a level can compromise maintaining VMC. If ATC wants to 'deconflict' vertically, then yes, assign a maximum altitude (the higher the better), but assigning a specific track AND a specific level is just not on. They can't have it both ways. Lots to learn about managing VFR flight in Class D , it would seem.

Interesting comment but a VFR transit of the Brize Class D usually comes with an altitude to fly along with the “remain VMC” exhortation.


This from the latest infringement guidance re Brize Norton.

Standard Transit Routes
Having called Brize Zone on 119.000 MHz, 10-15 nm prior to entry into controlled airspace, pilots can expect to be issued with one of the following VFR routes:

8 miles East of the aerodrome (via Farmoor reservoir VRP).
8 miles West of the aerodrome (Fairford to Northleach Roundabout VRP).
At 3,300 ft QNH in any direction.
At 2,300 ft QNH one nm through the Approach Lane (west or east of the aerodrome will be specified).
Directly through the overhead not above 1,300 ft QNH.
Any other routing subject to internal coordination with other control positions.
By chevvron
#1752320
Talkdownman wrote:
ChrisRowland wrote:our best option is to divert to the West, change to the Lasham frequency and squawk 7000. This way we can maintain some situational awareness.

Lasham isn't an ATC unit, it isn't manned by ATCOs and can't do more than give a rough idea of what traffic is around

Being an 'air sports' frequency I doubt that the Lasham launch-point radio operators even have ROCCs. No way is it AGCS, and neither can there be any expectation of traffic information. I think they have quite enough to do managing the launch communications. Probably best to leave them alone and avoid the overhead and (what should be) a G circle.

Unless you're using one of the frequencies allocated specifically to the BGA (was 5 but has increased to 8 with 8.33) then the person answering it must have an ROCC which has been signed by the licence holder; 131.030 c/s 'Lasham Launchpoint' - (that 's a mouthful on its own) isn't one of the BGA allocated frequencies.
Frequencies allocated specifically for BGA use are:-
129.905. 129.980, 118.685, 131.105, 131.130, 130.535, 128.890, 130.405
Course there is a 'Lasham Radio' frequency too (126.655) as TDM well knows; originally allocated to Lasham Radar and possibly may be used for that purpose again sometime.
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By Talkdownman
#1752328
chevvron wrote:Unless you're using one of the frequencies allocated specifically to the BGA .....then the person answering it must have an ROCC which has been signed by the licence holder; 131.030 .....isn't one of the BGA allocated frequencies

An exemption exists. So there.
By Skylaunch2
#1752330
chevvron wrote:Unless you're using one of the frequencies allocated specifically to the BA (was 5 but has increased to 8 with 8.33) then the person answering it must have an ROCC which has been signed by the licence holder; 131.030 c/s 'Lasham Launchpoint' - (that 's a mouthful on its own) isn't one of the BGA allocated frequencies.


It's good of you to quote the regulations, which is entirely correct from the rulebook, but unless you are privy to the aerodrome operators local exemptions from the regulator which from previous discussions, you are not connected to Lasham. I would therefore be very surprised if you would know the detail in a public domain and be able to say what can and can't be done. The frequency is operated in line with the dispensation that has existed for a number of years now and operates safely.
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