Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
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By Tim Dawson
#1747283
We've just put the finishing touches on the new Farnborough airspace in our SkyDemon chart, so I thought I'd post a little screenshot of it here.

If anyone is using SkyDemon on their PC and wants early access to a preview of the chart so they can explore it, I can arrange to upload it somewhere.

Image

It strikes me that this new airspace is an embarrassing mess and I can't wait to stand at Friedrichshafen apologising for it to all the European pilots who can't believe what they're seeing.
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By AlanM
#1747287
That is a great depiction of the complex changes. Any more complicated to the LTMA in general?

Is it not the case that the reason for the complexity is that there are so many stakeholders involved who (understandably) all wanted their livelihoods and freedoms maintained as much as they can?

(Not saying that the the new CAS structure is a great outcome btw)
Last edited by AlanM on Tue Feb 18, 2020 12:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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By GonzoEGLL
#1747290
AlanM wrote:That is a great depiction of the complex changes. Any more complicated to the LTNA in general?

Is it not the case that the reason for the complexity is that there are so many stakeholders involved who (understandably) all wanted their livelihoods and freedoms maintained as much as they can?

(Not saying that the the new CAS structure is a great outcome btw)


Quite.

I can’t imagine anyone thinks this is a great outcome.

But that’s the output of a system where everyone gets to chip in.

Having seen the ATC documentation, procedures and exams to be passed, I’m even more glad I’m not working at Farnborough. My colleagues there retain my greatest admiration.
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By James Chan
#1747292
And all this mess ultimately stems out of very poor runway planning policy in the area.
Once one divides and conquers the ground, the airspace then follows.....
By TopCat
#1747295
Tim Dawson wrote:It strikes me that this new airspace is an embarrassing mess ...

It really is. I particularly like the tiny triangle just south of Oakhanger, which seems to have been ignored in all the mucking about.

I suspect that by the time they've done whatever they end up doing with the Brize CAS, "embarrassing mess" is going to be seen as something of an understatement.

I think you've made it as good as it can be, though. Nice job.
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By James Chan
#1747299
Try transiting the Marseille area without SkyDemon!


Belgium is worse, although in both places transits are also incredibly easy.

How it takes so many lateral track miles to climb or descend so little at Farnborough is jaw dropping.

Should Southern England runway planning and transport policy "experts" be sent to Gasco as they started all this? :twisted:
Last edited by James Chan on Tue Feb 18, 2020 12:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
By TopCat
#1747300
GonzoEGLL wrote:I can’t imagine anyone thinks this is a great outcome.

Except the bizjet pilots in and out of 'LF, who now no longer need to extend downwind by a couple of miles to avoid mixing it up with the unwashed.
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By Mike Tango
#1747302
James Chan wrote:How it takes so many lateral track miles to climb or descend so little at Farnborough is jaw dropping.


Plot the SIDS, STARs, holding areas and Radar Manoeuvring Areas of the adjacent airfields that also utilise controlled airspace around there and I expect all will become a little clearer and jaw may return closer to normal position.
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By defcribed
#1747313
All I can say is that if I'm launching south out of White Waltham heading for the south east coast then the first call will be to Heathrow Radar for a transit via Ascot and Thorpe Park.

I doubt you'll be able to get a word in edgeways with Farnborough on a sunny weekend.

I'll call Farnborough if I can't get through Heathrow (not that they've ever refused), and I guess if you can't get Farnborough or they can't give a transit then it looks like you have to go right around the western edge, west of Odiham, and even then one is still kept low.

Omnishambles. It will be interesting to look at FR24 and listen out on the frequency on the first sunny Saturday of spring.
By Mike Tango
#1747315
xtophe wrote:And then ask why 10 more a/c cannot share part of those SID and STAR


I am not an expert at these things, but sadly I fear the answer is not as short as the question is.
User avatar
By Dave W
#1747317
GrahamB wrote:Try transiting the Marseille area without SkyDemon!

Actually, it doesn't look too bad on inspection. You can transit below much of the gubbins which is mostly aligned at only 2 levels (2500 & 3500') and anyway I bet Provence APP will see you right through the LF-Rs. :thumleft:
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