Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
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User avatar
By flybymike
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1747545
I suppose the point is that some folk might prefer an overhead join for various reasons, possibly for training, possibly for runway orientation, and in one case I can think of because I couldn’t see the airfield because of haze and the sun in my eyes.
By AlanM
#1747549
flybymike wrote:I suppose the point is that some folk might prefer an overhead join for various reasons, possibly for training, possibly for runway orientation, and in one case I can think of because I couldn’t see the airfield because of haze and the sun in my eyes.


You can be VFR in a 1500 cloud ceiling.... so you can still do an O/H join (even SVFR)

Anyway, probably me just missing the point. ;-)
User avatar
By flybymike
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1747553
If controllers are willing and able to provide SVFR clearances with the required traffic separation then great.
Otherwise I don’t fancy bumbling around dodging the pylons, aerials and houses at 500 feet.
By sssdu01
#1747558
[quote="AlanM"

You can be VFR in a 1500 cloud ceiling.... so you can still do an O/H join (even SVFR)

Anyway, probably me just missing the point. ;-)[/quote]

AlanM the point is for VFR pilots

Lots of ATCO's will only permit Standard OH Join (especially if its busy)
Standard OH Join is 2,000 feet
New rules dictate 1,000 from cloud = Standard OH join must have 3,000 feet + cloudbase

My original question still stands - if I am directed to do Standard OH join with less than 3,000 feet cloud base, have I been given SVFR by default ? It sounds like you are an experienced ATCO so please share the ATCO's interpretation of the new rules with all on this forum.
#1747567
sssdu01 wrote:if I am directed to do Standard OH join with less than 3,000 feet cloud base, have I been given SVFR by default ?

If the instruction is not clear, ask for clarifications.

So, say, you were up to this point on a VFR clearance, you could say: "Unable due ceiling, request Special VFR"

Or if it's the first instruction clearance: "Confirm cloud base" or "Confirm it is a Special VFR clearance"
AlanM liked this
#1747574
sssdu01 wrote:[quote="AlanM"

You can be VFR in a 1500 cloud ceiling.... so you can still do an O/H join (even SVFR)

Anyway, probably me just missing the point. ;-)

AlanM the point is for VFR pilots

Lots of ATCO's will only permit Standard OH Join (especially if its busy)
Standard OH Join is 2,000 feet
New rules dictate 1,000 from cloud = Standard OH join must have 3,000 feet + cloudbase

My original question still stands - if I am directed to do Standard OH join with less than 3,000 feet cloud base, have I been given SVFR by default ? It sounds like you are an experienced ATCO so please share the ATCO's interpretation of the new rules with all on this forum.


In that context, no you cannot fly the overhead join and be VFR in the literal, legal sense. I think you are overthinking it. If you are cleared VFR not above 2000ft at an ATC Unit in Class D I would suggest you say unable and request SVFR. Then you will have to hope that if there are other aircraft around, the ATCO uses reduced separation in the vicinity of the aerodrome to separate you visually.

Your comment of “lots of ATCOs only permit an overhead join” seems to be a lack of understanding if I am honest. Think of all the Controllers in Class D CTRs and tell me one airfield that insists on it.
Last edited by AlanM on Wed Feb 19, 2020 2:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Smaragd liked this
User avatar
By flybymike
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1747576
xtophe wrote:
sssdu01 wrote:if I am directed to do Standard OH join with less than 3,000 feet cloud base, have I been given SVFR by default ?

If the instruction is not clear, ask for clarifications.

So, say, you were up to this point on a VFR clearance, you could say: "Unable due ceiling, request Special VFR"

Or if it's the first instruction clearance: "Confirm cloud base" or "Confirm it is a Special VFR clearance"

I imagine that if a VFR clearance is not available then it won’t be offered.
Whether SVFR is offered as an alternative seems to be debatable.
#1747577
To answer the question as to whether you have been issued a SVFR clearance by default, if you have been cleared for an OH join at 2000 ft with a cloud base less than 3000 ft, the answer is no. The controller must specify that you have been cleared SVFR but then, hopefully, the pilot will have asked for a SVFR clearance having briefed before flight on the likely join procedure in use at the aerodrome and having considered the meteorological conditions
AlanM liked this
#1747580
Who, honestly, gives two hoots about this stuff when it comes to what they actually do in the real world?

The rules about distance from cloud, vertical and horizontal, were always completely unenforceable and in practice allow pilots a large degree of discretion.

Just do what is sensible. If a controller makes a fuss about VFR minima (highly unlikely) then take SVFR or IFR.

If you're asked to join overhead at 2,000ft under a 2,900 foot cloudbase (and you know exactly what it is right, because you skimmed along the bottom while OCAS to check?) then just do it. I have never known an overhead join inside CAS, but perhaps that's because when flying anywhere big enough to have CAS I'm invariably flying the ILS.
AlanM, Talkdownman liked this
#1747581
I would recommend that if anyone is based in Class D they should ask their friendly Air Traffic Control Unit to explain How they see it progressing and what work they have done to implement the changes.

We engaged with the Jersey Aero Club and took the time to decipher the rules, train our Controllers and explain how it will work to the local GA community. Get involved and everyone will benefit.
Edward Bellamy, PaulB, flybymike and 3 others liked this
By AlanM
#1747584
flybymike wrote:
xtophe wrote:
sssdu01 wrote:if I am directed to do Standard OH join with less than 3,000 feet cloud base, have I been given SVFR by default ?

If the instruction is not clear, ask for clarifications.

So, say, you were up to this point on a VFR clearance, you could say: "Unable due ceiling, request Special VFR"

Or if it's the first instruction clearance: "Confirm cloud base" or "Confirm it is a Special VFR clearance"

I imagine that if a VFR clearance is not available then it won’t be offered.
Whether SVFR is offered as an alternative seems to be debatable.


I would give you a VFR clearance not above 3000ft and you can tell me if you cannot achieve the clearance. Assuming the Cloud is BKN at 3000ft how do I know where the clouds are exactly?

In that instance I would then ask you what your intentions are (route direct to final, join base leg etc). If you want to stay level at 2000ft and feel unable then it is like any form of clearance - just say unable and tell us what you want.
#1747587
Who, honestly, gives two hoots about this stuff when it comes to what they actually do in the real world?


While I agree with that sentiment to an extent, I think we need to be careful about spreading that message too literally.

On the whole in France for example the rules seem to work fine, but I have heard of situations in which traffic had reported as ‘VFR’ and ATC treated it accordingly when actually it wasn’t really and caused a collision risk with IFR. I agree unlikely in a radar environment, but the cloud separation requirement is based on a logic, that should be broadly followed for everyone’s safety, regardless of how enforceable it might actually be. Especially if we want to move towards a more European style of how class D is treated...
WhoWhenWhy?, AlanM liked this
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