Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
#1745777
We're looking to fly low level in a helicopter via Andorra (or somewhere near) but looking at Skydemon it does not have the wires displayed on the charts, foreflight seems to have them, but not easy to see, any advice thoughts on routes and charts / apps would be appreciated
Kind Regard's

Bellpilot
#1745803
SkyDemon has obstacles 300’ high or greater. Make sure you’re zoomed to at least 250k scale.
kanga liked this
#1745805
Good luck! (please add me as a beneficiary of your Estate).

The Spanish are poor about charts at the best of times. My limited fixed-wing private flying experiences low-level in similar terrain is in Scandinavia, and the Norse and Swede are pretty quick about keeping charts updated (this was pre-SkyDemon days). I have flown through the Pyrenees, but only the lower parts.
But I doubt whether even the Norse and Swede AIP could keep up with wires strung across valleys, let alone the Spanish.

It's a bit like windmills...they spring up so quickly, AIPs can't keep up fast enough.

Rob
(Skydemon and Foreflight user, fixed-wing PPL, VFR)
#1745807
Tim Dawson wrote:SkyDemon has obstacles 300’ high or greater. Make sure you’re zoomed to at least 250k scale.


Tim, how often does your team receive updates so as to be able to update your software in turn? Does this vary country-by-country, or is it governed by ICAO? (and do you get these updates from AIP/AIC/ other / sources?)

Bellpilot: will you be operating below 300ft? (this is the height above which obstacles need to be marked on UK charts, at least; I suspect this may be an international rule. Don't answer if you'd rather not, but your comment "low level" has different interpretations amongst differing pilot communities.
#1745812
Varies by country. The Spanish are actually pretty good at publishing obstacle data which is updated every 28 days in our charts.
#1745825
The Pyrenees is a very windy area. Low level flying is extremely bumpy and prone to sudden updrafts and down drafts, which can frequently exceed the climb performance of the aircraft.

Possibly the scariest experience in my 50 years flying was when flying in the Pyrenees. I was in the back when the P1 was heading towards a small peak at about 2-300’ below the peak and tried to climb to get over it. When I looked forward he was at full power and pitched up to Vx - but the VSI showed 2000 fpm down! He was convinced he could get the a/c over the ridge, but the rest of us where screaming at him to do a 180. Eventually the guy in the right seat took control and did a 180 - and we all survived.

Basically, low level flying in mountainous areas is not recommended unless you have completed a reputable course in mountain flying.
Stu B liked this
#1745892
Jeez there is some serious scaremongering going on here. :shock:

I know nothing about (Bell?) helicopters, and although to me there is something unnatural about a whole bunch of metal desperately trying to tear itself out of really close formation to achieve flight.. :clown: ..I take one to work regularly, so Im pretty sure they dont have to fly at 120kts everywhere and I know for sure they can stop, then land - as opposed to the other way about, a safety feature aeroplanes dont have. :wink: I also know that helicopters have altitude/weight performance limitations just like aeroplanes, so no doubt the OP will know these. He has asked about cables and obstacles on charts, so my guess is he is planning this flight pretty carefully.

I would have no hesitation in flying across (over/through) the pyrenees on a clear, low wind day, having meticulously planned the route with margins through the varoius passes and given myself "outs" at strategic points. I have a flight planned through the Alps myself for the summer. In fact its been planned for the last 3 Raduno's to tell the truth, but the weather gods have so far always given me the finger. :(

It sounds like fun to me, so if you do make the flight, tell us all about it.

Regards, SD..
#1746045
Tim Dawson wrote:SkyDemon has obstacles 300’ high or greater. Make sure you’re zoomed to at least 250k scale.


Thanks for the response Tim, I can see the electricity wires marked on the chart, does it show for example cable car cables spanning valleys?, I always use Sky-Demon, but liked the fact you can see the ski lifts on foreflight, although I appreciate these are below 300' and I would not be flying over them, but good to know where they are for planning purposes.
#1746048
Rob L wrote:
Tim Dawson wrote:SkyDemon has obstacles 300’ high or greater. Make sure you’re zoomed to at least 250k scale.


Tim, how often does your team receive updates so as to be able to update your software in turn? Does this vary country-by-country, or is it governed by ICAO? (and do you get these updates from AIP/AIC/ other / sources?)

Bellpilot: will you be operating below 300ft? (this is the height above which obstacles need to be marked on UK charts, at least; I suspect this may be an international rule. Don't answer if you'd rather not, but your comment "low level" has different interpretations amongst differing pilot communities.


Hi Rob, the mountains are pretty high, so we will be flying along the valleys, but don't want to fly into a cable that's spanning a valley! so I'm looking for the best route through, we could go around, but if we get the right weather, it would be great fly through he mountains.
#1746055
Bellpilot:
If cables are marked with orange balls, they can still be difficult to see,: I understand your concern :thumleft: .

I saw these "orange balls" during one of my Scandinavian flying trips. As you can see, some of the cables adjacent are themselves unmarked (relying upon the others with balls to highlight a cluster).

Cables are almost impossible to see (even with orange balls).
Image

And this picture is taken from a boat!*

The saving grace is that all towers where wires cross wide valleys are painted red/white stripes , so look for those first (this seems to be an International convention)

Hope that helps,
Rob
*I did not fly underneath these wires the next day, I promise!
#1746074
Bellpilot wrote:does it show for example cable car cables spanning valleys?


Only if they’re at least 300’ high. Everything lower is removed as clutter.