Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
User avatar
By Dusty_B
#1746385
So, if it is a permit aircraft, then surely it is “Permitted” to fly IFR rather than certified. I’m throwing in another option to answer the question “equipped or certified”!
By Lefty
#1746396
This forum seems to turning into a place where people prefer to argue about things - rather than learn.

@SteveC speaks the truth. It’s his day job to know the rules.

The rules are the rules - accept it.
All the pedantics and arguing the meaning of words won’t change the rules.
By Lefty
#1746397
Dusty_B wrote:So, if it is a permit aircraft, then surely it is “Permitted” to fly IFR rather than certified. I’m throwing in another option to answer the question “equipped or certified”!


I have to believe (or at least try to believe], that you are either joking, or trying a wind up with that comment?
User avatar
By GrahamB
#1746398
It is legal to fly in Class G under IFR with no more than an altimeter, compass, chart and wristwatch.

So setting out the situation as follows:

- a permit aircraft, with a ILS, ADF and DME fitted, with the day/VFR limitation removed
- pilot undergoing revalidation has a valid IMC rating
- the entire flight conducted outside CAS, including two approaches (1 x ILS, 1 NDB), a hold (just for arguments sake) and upper air work
- the entire flight conducted in VMC

Genuine question - where in the regs does it say that the above isn't permitted? And without the day/VFR limitation removed?
Last edited by GrahamB on Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
By Boxkite
#1746399
Lefty wrote:This forum seems to turning into a place where people prefer to argue about things - rather than learn.

It's the weather.
User avatar
By GrahamB
#1746402
Dusty_B wrote:So, if it is a permit aircraft, then surely it is “Permitted” to fly IFR rather than certified. I’m throwing in another option to answer the question “equipped or certified”!

The terms used by the LAA in the relevant TL are: "clearance to night and/or IMC or IFR flight", "removal of the Day/VMC limitation", "a night/IFR clearance", "removing day/VFR restrictions" amongst others.

As an aside the TL seems to use VMC/VFR and IMC/IFR interchangeably, which is a bit sloppy on their part.
User avatar
By SteveC
#1746423
GrahamB wrote:It is legal to fly in Class G under IFR with no more than an altimeter, compass, chart and wristwatch.

So setting out the situation as follows:

- a permit aircraft, with a ILS, ADF and DME fitted, with the day/VFR limitation removed
- pilot undergoing revalidation has a valid IMC rating
- the entire flight conducted outside CAS, including two approaches (1 x ILS, 1 NDB), a hold (just for arguments sake) and upper air work
- the entire flight conducted in VMC

Genuine question - where in the regs does it say that the above isn't permitted? And without the day/VFR limitation removed?


The flight is required to be conducted under IFR. You can only fly IFR in an IFR certified aircraft. All the UK bollox about calling yourself IFR in Class G s just that, bollox. When you call yourself IFR in Class G it just means you are flying at IFR levels. However an aircraft flying under IFR in controlled airspace or conducting an IAP under IFR is required to comply with the IFR rules including complying with the aircraft certification for IFR flight.

Why does everyone of these discussions end up being a bar room pissing contest in pedantry?

The LAA worked very hard to get permit to fly aircraft accepted for IFR flight on a case by case basis. A permit aircraft is not permitted to file IFR unless it is in compliance with the IFR rules and certification. A permit to fly aircraft is restricted to Day/VFR. VFR= Visual Flight Rules.

It really cant be that difficult to understand can it?
Last edited by SteveC on Thu Feb 13, 2020 6:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
By GrahamB
#1746425
SteveC wrote:The flight is required to be conducted under IFR. You can only fly IFR in an IFR certified aircraft. All the UK bollox about calling yourself IFR in Class G s just that, bollox. When you call yourself IFR in Class G it just means you are flying at IFR levels. However an aircraft flying under IFR in controlled airspace or conducting an IAP under IFR is required to comply with the IFR rules including complying with the aircraft certification for IFR flight.

Why does everyone of these discussions end up being a bar room pissing contest in pedantry?

The LAA worked very hard to get permit to fly aircraft accepted for IFR flight on a case by case basis. A permit aircraft is not permitted to file IFR unless it is in compliance with the IFR rules. It really cant be that difficult to understand can it?

It's not a pissing contest, it was a genuine question as, quite frequently, our regulations turn on fine detail and very specific meanings of words.
User avatar
By SteveC
#1746426
GrahamB wrote:
SteveC wrote:The flight is required to be conducted under IFR. You can only fly IFR in an IFR certified aircraft. All the UK bollox about calling yourself IFR in Class G s just that, bollox. When you call yourself IFR in Class G it just means you are flying at IFR levels. However an aircraft flying under IFR in controlled airspace or conducting an IAP under IFR is required to comply with the IFR rules including complying with the aircraft certification for IFR flight.

Why does everyone of these discussions end up being a bar room pissing contest in pedantry?

The LAA worked very hard to get permit to fly aircraft accepted for IFR flight on a case by case basis. A permit aircraft is not permitted to file IFR unless it is in compliance with the IFR rules. It really cant be that difficult to understand can it?

It's not a pissing contest, it was a genuine question as, quite frequently, our regulations turn on fine detail and very specific meanings of words.

The point is that you were the one that said 'bollox' in effect to someone suggesting that a permit aircraft could be used. Now you say it can.


Thats incorrect, read back right to the start. I quite clearly stated that there are permit to fly aircraft that can achieve IFR certification from the LAA on a case by case by basis that can operate under IFR and be used. The original assertion was to counter a comment that a no IFR permit aircraft could be used if flown in VMC. That is incorrect. The training and test are conducted under IFR. The renewal is conducted under IFR and as such regardless of the actually visibility the aircraft is required to have an IFR certification either as a CofA aircraft are certified by the LAA on a permit to fly for IFR.

Is that clear enough now?
User avatar
By PaulB
#1746427
edited... it's not worthier the hassle.
Last edited by PaulB on Thu Feb 13, 2020 6:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
By GrahamB
#1746428
@SteveC

Our posts crossed - I realised my error and had deleted the offending line.
User avatar
By SteveC
#1746429
PaulB wrote:Mine was a genuine question too. I didn't really appreciate being called lazy (a comment subsequently edited out).


Yep edited out in case some snow flake was offended by me doing the work for them and posting the relevant material rather than going and looking it up themselves. Funny old world........ :roll:
User avatar
By SteveC
#1746430
GrahamB wrote:@SteveC

Our posts crossed - I realised my error and had deleted the offending line.


yep we all do it on occasion and edit accordingly. Although seemingly people get the hump on for rapidly edited comments as well!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
User avatar
By PaulB
#1746432
Very funny.... very professional..... <sigh>
User avatar
By SteveC
#1746433
PaulB wrote:Very funny.... very professional..... <sigh>


You chose to play word games. Don't get the hump when you lose..... :wink: