Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
User avatar
By SteveC
#1746278
flybymike wrote:
There are permit aircraft that are certified accordingly.


Genuine question.

Do you mean equipped or certified?


The LAA are issuing on a case by case basis permits to fly that certify permit aircraft for IFR flight.

There are plenty of permit aircraft that have amazing glass cockpits that are not certified for IFR but would technically be capable of it.

However it was the assertion of doing an IMC rating under VFR that is incorrect. You must be able to operate under IFR as you will be accepting an IFR clearance and thus the aircraft must be certified for IFR.

As an Instructor and Examiner it’s the first thing I check.
User avatar
By PaulB
#1746285
Out of curiosity, when you are cleared for an ILS approach[1] on a gin clear day like yesterday, are you IFR or VFR? Does the answer change if said ILS is in Class D or Class G.

Would you be *cleared* for the approach if it was Class G? Would you be so cleared for other approaches?

Don’t shout.... I’m just curious.
User avatar
By PaulB
#1746291
SteveC wrote:You would be expected to be able to follow an IFR clearance.


That's the answer to a different question......
User avatar
By GrahamB
#1746293
SteveC wrote:However it was the assertion of doing an IMC rating under VFR that is incorrect. You must be able to operate under IFR as you will be accepting an IFR clearance and thus the aircraft must be certified for IFR.


Actually, the assertion was taking an 'IMC biennial renewal' (sic) in a permit aircraft, not an IMC course.

One can see circumstances where I think this would be legitimate.
User avatar
By SteveC
#1746316
Whether it's the initial rating or a renewal, the rules are exactly the same. The aircraft must be certified for IFR in order to take an IFR clearance and doing training or renewal requires you to be able to operate under IFR whether or not it is in VMC......
User avatar
By PaulB
#1746325
Where are these rules stated?
User avatar
By SteveC
#1746326
PaulB wrote:Where are these rules stated?


Are you being serious?

Standards Document 25 Section 3.5.2


3.5.2 The briefing will include:
(a) The purpose of the flight
The purpose of the flight is for the applicant to demonstrate his ability to plan and conduct an IFR flight in IMC with a passenger whilst acting as pilot-in-command and operating as single crewmember. The briefed profile shall be conducted in accordance with Instrument Flight Rules (IFR) and will include simulated aeroplane emergencies. Passenger safety, comfort and reassurance must be considered throughout the flight. The applicant is not to expect any assistance but will be briefed on the role of the Examiner as a safety pilot when instrument screens, visor or goggles are in place.

LAA Statement on IFR Approval can be found here:

http://www.lightaircraftassociation.co. ... cedure.pdf


Any IMC test is conducted under IFR. In order to accept an IFR clearance the aircraft has to be certified for IFR regardless of whether the test is conducted IMC or VMC.
Last edited by SteveC on Thu Feb 13, 2020 12:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
By PaulB
#1746328
Sort of... it’s clear that to fly in IMC that an aeroplane needs to be so certified but you seem to be suggesting that it also needs to be certified to do an IMC test on a gin clear VMC day with no IMC within a million (I exaggerate) miles.
User avatar
By SteveC
#1746329
PaulB wrote:Sort of... it’s clear that to fly in IMC that an aeroplane needs to be so certified but you seem to be suggesting that it also needs to be certified to do an IMC test on a gin clear VMC day with no IMC within a million (I exaggerate) miles.


The weather conditions have nothing to do with it. Have you any idea how much time I spend in gin clear conditions under IFR at work?

The simple fact is that in order to accept an IFR clearance the aircraft has to be certified for IFR. An IMC test is conducted under IFR as per the standards document I linked above, therefore it needs to be certified..........
By Boxkite
#1746332
Without IFR certification (CAA or permit) how would you prove the aircraft was suitably equipped and functioning for the IMC renewal?
User avatar
By flybymike
#1746349
When I did my initial IMC rating back in the eighties in another time and another universe, I’m pretty sure that all my training and approaches were conducted VFR and certainly VMC.
When I queried this with my instructor, he said that training a student whilst coping with PIC responsibilities in actual IMC would be far too dangerous.

But then in those days an IMC rating didn’t even qualify you to carry out an instrument approach in controlled airspace!
User avatar
By SteveC
#1746356
Wow, must have been a pretty shoddy IMC/IR Instructor. Even the feeble amongst us manage it all day long in solid IMC.

But like I said, standards document 25 has the information. Training and testing is conducted under IFR. It’s the purpose of the rating after all.
User avatar
By Dusty_B
#1746379
flybymike wrote:
There are permit aircraft that are certified accordingly.


Genuine question.

Do you mean equipped or certified?


Permitted?!
User avatar
By SteveC
#1746383
Dusty_B wrote:
flybymike wrote:
There are permit aircraft that are certified accordingly.


Genuine question.

Do you mean equipped or certified?


Permitted?!


No, permit aircraft as in Permit to Fly as in overseen by the LAA operating on a Permit to Fly....