[RichJordan]

I thought the requirement to only turn in the circuit direction within the vicinity of the aerodrome, rather than just the ATZ, so would still apply just above?

KE

Not always possible. E.g. Positioning to look at windsock to ascertain runway/circuit direction at non radio strips.

[townleyc]

I accept that, but once the direction is established...

KE

[David Wood]

I thought the requirement to only turn in the circuit direction within the vicinity of the aerodrome, rather than just the ATZ, so would still apply just above?
KE

Nope. You're either in the ATZ or you're not.

[rusty eagle]

So, in good old non-radio days (which is what the overhead-join is designed for?), you arrive over the field to check out the windsock and the signals square. So how the hell does one arrive over the landing end of the runway when one doesn't know the circuit direction until you get there. Surely the arrival point 'overhead' traditionally is over the centre of the field??

At White Waltham, for example, the signal square is between the ops room and runway 25. So if you join overhead non radio you may not have that in sight for circuit direction. What do you do then?

[Rob L]

I would agree with you, but will add extra position calls prior (eg. entering ATZ from the north @ 2000) if it is busy with folk all joining at the same time.

It's a legal requirement so to do. (I use this as a defence when in big-circuit airfields which have their nominated circuit pattern outside the legally-defined ATZ and I get accused of "cutting up", I tell them that not leaving or joining the ATZ without a radio call to that effect is a breach of the ANO, which could lead to a criminal prosecution. They don't like that).

[Rob L]

The "vicinity of an aerodrome" that has an ATZ is generally accepted by the CAA (and their lawyers) to be within and including those ATZ extremities.

Certainly in the case of an aerodrome with an ATZ and A/G radio. There is case law to support this, but I don't know of which the many prosecutions brought by the CAA to point to .

[townleyc]

That explains it, but if I am just outside, and I know the circuit direction, I would do my best to turn in the circuit direction

KE

[David Wood]

That is, of course, your decision as PIC and outside of the ATZ you can do as you wish.

The point that I was making in the context of the CAA poster is that I’ve seen pilots get mightily stressed by trying to work out how they position themselves initially for an OHJ if approaching from any direction that isn’t as shown. And it also ties in with the discussions about what is meant by the Overhead and whether an arriving pilots needs to worry about precisely which bit of the overhead they are in.

For the avoidance of doubt there are only really three locations that the pilots needs to be concerned with in the OHJ, prior to joining the circuit downwind.

The first is the Overhead. It means, as it says on the tin, Overhead the airfield and Outside of the ATZ (if there is one). Overhead means anywhere from where you can look down onto the airfield.

The second is the Deadside which is Inside the ATZ, the opposite side of the runway centre-line to the circuit direction.

The third is the Upwind Threshold. It means over the numbers at the non-landing end of the runway, the cross-wind end.

The only constraint on manoeuvring is that all turns within the ATZ (ie, within a 3D block of air within 2nm of the airfield centre and 2000' high) should be in the direction of circuit traffic.

Let’s not over-complicate this.

[Dodo]

David Wood wrote

The first is the Overhead. It means, as it says on the tin, Overhead the airfield and critically Outside of the ATZ.

Sorry David, do you have a reference for this "Overhead is (...) Outside the ATZ" statement?

Certainly I can think of airfields where the published OHJ height is within the ATZ, eg Fairoaks, Lydd (mind you they call that an overhead join when it is really a high crosswind join)

Shoreham, my home base, always instruct you to "Join and report overhead at 2000ft (on QFE)" ATZ extends up to and I believe includes 2000 ft.

[David Wood]

There will be some local variation borne of local airspace restrictions in the main. They don’t change the underlying principle of the thing.

[JAFO]

The diagram shown earlier indicates that the underlying principle is that the overhead is (generally) 2000ft and/or 1000ft above circuit height, that's in the ATZ.

[Human Factor]

What is this “overhead descending dead side” call? You can’t do both at the same time....

[Smaragd]

Well, one could say "overhead descending into deadside", which would meet both of David Wood's criteria, but I don't think addition of "into" improves anyone's situation awareness.

[GrahamB]

While you are up there, just keep a good look out for all the angels dancing. They won’t be, as they’ll peering intently at the hairs they are splitting.

[OpenCirrus619]

When I was doing my PPL I was told, when crossing the active to the deadside, to call "Overhead numbers XX" - where XX are the numbers on the upwind end of the active runway.

That way:
- There is absolutely no doubt of precisely where I am
- Should I have got it wrong (e.g. where there is more than one runway and I've mis-identified) then ATC will know / can advise me of my error

Just the way I do it.

OC619