Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
#1729502
Critique requested. @Irv Lee, maybe? Or @Cookie, if he still visits?

Is this updated draft correct and unambiguous?

Image
(The only changes from the previous Issue 1.5 are within the thick red box, which will appear in the draft version only)

Does the "Zero" in the 'P1/PIC Minimum' column require an explanatory Note, do you think?
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I have not included anything about now perhaps being able to count microlight hours towards an EASA SEP/TMG Reval by Exp, as suggested in @ak7274's post here, as I am not certain that is correct.

If it is correct, does it apply to both PPL(A) and LAPL(A)? (Note 4 and penultimate column apply)

I'd be grateful if somebody is able to advise either way - referencing chapter & verse.

--

Finally, is 'Note 1' now obsolete?
#1729509
I umm'ed and ah'ed between 'None', 'Zero' and 'Nil' :D

I didn't think any of them would be unclear or unambiguous, but willing to be nudged otherwise.
#1729511
Finally, is 'Note 1' now obsolete?


Yes I believe so, since this was only relevant during the transitional period only between 2012 and 2017. Any JAR licence has now expired and isn't an EASA one, so will need to be upgraded/replaced.
#1729523
I’m pretty certain that is correct. There was a post not very long ago from Nick Wilcock confirming this, and posting a link.
As I. Recall however, the instructional revalidation flight must be flown in a conventional SEP, not a microlight.
Last edited by flybymike on Tue Nov 12, 2019 2:00 pm, edited 3 times in total.
#1729524
Thank you, chaps - but as mentioned above I would like chapter and verse please, before I amend the table.

Even in the quote from Nick Wilcock above he is saying (then) "...should be..." To go in the table, "should be" is no good - I need to know what it is. Did things firm up after he posted, and if so where is that recorded?

Are you able to quote an official reference here?

("A bloke on the internet says so" isn't enough for this, regardless of how reliable that person is.)
kingbing liked this
#1729537
Dave,

More comments - sorry !
a) I have a 1970's UK PPL marked for SEP, but I have a feeling that using my self declaration mailed to our UK CAA the three yearly 'medical' [instead of a Dr's Class2] means I can only be legal on "SSEA" ?
b) For this particular licence - at the top of your table - it states 12 hours P1 in each two year period, of which a minimum of 6 must be accomplished in the last year.
Yet next item down SSEA has more strictures on hours thn SEP and they don't appear to equate to the ''8 hrs'' in the next column ?
c) Does PUT mean pilot under ''training'' or just time which happens with an Instructor ?
e) If the former I surely remain P1, even if the Instructor sits next to me and monitors my performance for the compulsory ''Certificate of Test/Check or Experience'' every two years.

Even with your beautifully crafted Table and obvious knowledge it surely demonstrates the fallibility of UK CAA/JAR/EASA all having had a finger in the pie, so no-one [e.g.like me] can confidently attend to the finer detailss of legality.

Cookie sorted me out a couple of yeras ago, via the LAA 'coaching' scheme and their list of approved check pilots who are not all, AFIK, actual ''Instructors''.

mike hallam.
#1729540
Mike, most of your questions don't actually relate to the table and would be better answered by somebody like Irv.

However, I'll make a basic start:

a) Relates to medical and licence combination legality, which the table doesn't deal with. A good place to look for definitive answers on this is @Irv Lee's website.

b) You are mistaken in that the table doesn't say 12 hours P1 in each 2 year period: Any hours flown in the first year of the 2 year cycle don't count at all for SEP/TMG - you need to do at least 12 hours of any type (P1/PUT) in the second year, including at least 6 hrs P1 and at least 1 hr PUT.
You are right in saying that the rules for an SEP Rating are different to those for an SSEA Rating. You follow the rules for the Rating specified on your licence. The UK PPL is a complicated in that you could have an SEP Rating or an SSEA Rating on that licence. With other licence types it's only one of those.
(You say you have "SEP" annotated on yours, so the SSEA Rating should be irrelevant to you.)

c) "PUT" means under instruction i.e. logging in the 'dual' column. If you are logging P1, you are not PUT, and you need to be PUT to meet the relevant revalidation by experience rules.

d) There is no d). ;)

e) A few misapprehensions here. For example, a Certificate of Test/Check is not compulsory if you are Revalidating by Experience. All you need to do (other requirements being met) is to fly a training flight with an instructor, and that means PUT not P1 - see earlier.

The LAA Coaches are definitely instructors - CRIs or FIs or more:
LAA wrote:All coaches are CAA qualified Instructors and CAA 'R' Examiners.


I certainly agree with this - it is why I made a start on the table in the first instance. :(
mikehallam wrote:...it surely demonstrates the fallibility of UK CAA/JAR/EASA all having had a finger in the pie, so no-one [e.g.like me] can confidently attend to the finer detailss of legality.

To be fair to the CAA, who I think deserve historic plaudits here, one key reason it is a mess is because they tried very hard over several years to avoid some pilots being grounded by the implementation of new rules from elsewhere, and that sadly meant a set of what you and I see as bodges.
Kemble Pitts liked this
#1729547
Dave,

The recognition of microlight hours is not mentioned in the regulations that came into effect on 11 November.

nickwilcock wrote:Recognition of flight time on Annex 1 (a) - (e) and (g) towards SEP/TMG revalidation is likely to be included in AMC/GM, not in 'hard law'. The NPA 2014-29(B) reference is AMC1 FCL.140.A (b)(1)(ii).


A new AMCis added after GM1 FCL.135.A;FCL.135.H:
‘AMC1 FCL.140.A Recency requirements; FCL.740.A(b)(1)(ii)Revalidation of class and type ratings —aeroplanes
All hours flown on any aircraft registered in an ICAO Contracting Stateshallcount in full towards fulfilling the hourly requirements of this Part as long as the aircraft matchesthe definition and criteria of the respective Part-FCL aircraft category as well as its class and type ratings.’
Last edited by patowalker on Tue Nov 12, 2019 4:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Dave W liked this
#1729548
Thank you, D.

Until the relevant AMC/GM is published - and assuming it contains what is expected - I shall not add the use of microlight hours for EASA licences to the table, then.

Issue 1.6 of the table is therefore likely only to be updated with the changes to LAPL hourly minimums, once they've been sanity-checked by the grown-ups on this thread.

Edit: @patowalker, this edit follows your edit. ;)

So what does that AMC/GM quote actually mean then?
Microlight hours count for SEP/TMG reval, yes or no?
If so, Reval PUT hour must be in a SEP/TMG, yes or no?

It is highly frustrating. There is so much assumed knowledge and interpretation required - it would be so much better if the rules were written by and for pilots rather than - as seems the case - by and for lawyers. :(
Stu B liked this
#1729596
Dave W wrote:Edit: @patowalker, this edit follows your edit. ;)

So what does that AMC/GM quote actually mean then?
Microlight hours count for SEP/TMG reval, yes or no?
If so, Reval PUT hour must be in a SEP/TMG, yes or no?


Yes and yes. EASA regulations do not define a microlight, so a 3-axis microlight is in effect a SEP, albeit one under a certain weight and with a maximum stall speed of 35kts.

The proposed wording "All hours flown on any aircraft registered in an ICAO Contracting State ..." will cause issues in France, where microlights are identified, not registered, :)