[patowalker]

[
I would err toward making it fairly obvious to someone that is unfamiliar with the area and the route, that there is an opportunity. Where at the moment if you didn't know, you could miss it.

Wouldn't it be safer to let johnnie foreigner believe it is standard Class D and call for a transit, rather than misunderstand the rules and infringe.

[RichJordan]

Wouldn't it be safer to let johnnie foreigner believe it is standard Class D and call for a transit, rather than misunderstand the rules and infringe.

Don't see how It would make a difference? Whether they believe it's Class G or Class D, as long as they stay in the corridor, they aren't infringing.

[James Chan]

Whether they believe it's Class G or Class D, as long as they stay in the corridor, they aren't infringing.

They would if visibility was less than 4km, or they cannot remain clear of cloud and in sight of the ground.

[Iceman]

I was just contrasting this with the Mini Route over LAX, and was amused to find a Manchester Boulevard on the chart .



Iceman

[CloudHound]

PBN and RNP offers the opportunity to shrink CAS dramatically.

The future size and shapes of the MAN & LPL zones are under discussion now.

We have a chance to influence through ACP but need one voice such as AOPA/GAAC etc., to get in and advocate for it to happen.

[James Chan]

Lots of technologies offer opportunities, but without the political will I'm afraid the larger aerodromes will just sit on it.

On the plus side, the rattling from some GA friendly groups has enabled the government to look at legislation to give CAA "powers" to create ACPs (or enforce airspace change?). It’ll help inject some joined up thinking to airspace modernization. But I don't know what stage this Bill is at in Parliament.

Otherwise Manchester and some others will continue to charge me and you some £500+ in landing and handling, then maximize and pay dividends to the investors and just sit on the dog's breakfast of 1970s airspace and might not want to do anything with Liverpool either as they're their "competitor".

[PaulB]

I'm going to try and ask the question that I asked above in a different way.

Given that

- 8nm seems to be an average sort of distance between an airport and the edge & the CTR (on runway heading) (Looking at Birmingham, East Mids, Gatwick)

- often there's a class G SFC-1500 beyond, and

- the LLR is about 8nm from both Liverpool and Manchester,

what effect would it have on Manchester or Liverpool arrivals or departures if the area that is currently the LLR was Class G SFC to 1500?

[James Chan]

what effect would it have on Manchester or Liverpool arrivals or departures if the area that is currently the LLR was Class G SFC to 1500?

I’d imagine infringements. With Class G, minimum forward visibility is 1500m “VFR” so one could be pretty blind, non-radio, non-transponding, then infringe airspace given the lack of visible ground features, and cause Liverpool and/or Manchester severe disruption.

[flybymike]

Of course I’m sure that no one has already “accidentally” entered the LLR with no radio, no transponder, no clearance, and less than 4K visibility.....

[PaulB]

Are transponders mandatory in the LLR? Is a radio? (I guess it is because it's class D)

[cockney steve]

^^^^^^^^^ no, they're not! - and yes! I have been through the LLR in a Flexwing!

The terms for using the LLR are clearly laid out, you don't need permission to use it if you follow the terms and conditions....If you wish to, or have to encroach on Controlled Airspace outside the corridor, then you have to get permission in the normal way.

[PaulB]

^^^^^^^^^ no, they're not! - and yes! I have been through the LLR in a Flexwing!

The terms for using the LLR are clearly laid out, you don't need permission to use it if you follow the terms and conditions....If you wish to, or have to encroach on Controlled Airspace outside the corridor, then you have to get permission in the normal way.

You're in Class D. Is a radio required? (A transponder isn't)

ENR 1.4 para 2.4 would suggest it is.

That said in the same doc lower down in in para 2.4.1 specifically note 3.l.ii which also described the LLR, specific licences are mentioned - PPL & Basic CPL. The LAPL is not.

The same obscure wording is in MAN AD 2.22 Para 7.e

The Special Low Level Route is also notified for the purposes of Schedule 7, Private Pilots Licence (Aeroplanes), sub-paragraph 2(c)(ii) and Basic Commercial Pilots Licence (Aeroplanes) sub-paragraph 3(g)(ii), of the Air Navigation Order 2009 when there is a flight visibility of at least 4 KM. The Low Level Route is illustrated at AD 2-EGCC-4-1.

What does that actually mean for PPL's and Basic CPLs (and other licence holders)?

[BillBravo]

'...they cannot remain clear of cloud and in sight of the ground.'

if you remain in sight of the ground on the northern part of the LLR over Warrington, you will quickly realise that you shouldn't be there, as there are not many land clear options if the engine fails! I would only use the southern end of the LLR en route to Barton. For all other crosses, speak to Liverpool and you will normally get a crossing of their airspace Oulton Park- Lima Papa Lima - Kirby, with the odd orbit if there is landing traffic, but much better than going over Warrington at just over 1000 ft with the take 2 thing. Or much better, if you are further west, ask clearance Chester-M53 J10, Seaforth, fly along the river and even take a nice picture of Liverpool city centre!
Bill B.

[Talkdownman]

What does that actually mean for PPL's and Basic CPLs (and other licence holders)?

The Basic CPL (BCPL) has been withdrawn.

[russp]

We recently updated our airspace database for that part of the world after someone pointed out (correctly) that SkyDemon didn't show the LLR as Class D.

Previously, our display was helpful but not entirely accurate.
Now, our display is accurate but not entirely helpful.

If a consensus emerges in this thread I'm happy to revert it back.

My vote would be to revert back - now it just looks too similar to the Luton SVFR corridor. I think clarity is preferable to technical accuracy.