[defcribed]

You really are quite poorly informed in this one. You also probably have forgotten that when you trained for the PPL the course, standardisation was somewhat different to today.
Students are taught how to lean in the second part of EX 4 both in the ground brief and in the practical flight exercise. You and I both trained at the same place around the same time and I certainly had training on leaning both in the U.K. and with the same FI in the Simplon Pass before I had my skill test.
The truth of the matter is that in the UK the highest airfield has an elevation of 800 and a few feet, even on the hottest day the types of training aircraft we fly will not require leaning on the ground. Many types have leaning advice which starts at 3000’ so it’s not surprising that not much leaning happens here.
A couple of weeks ago you were having a go at those having cross channel training with an FI, I guess no one has ever ended up in a raft while doing that. I guess this must be another one to add to the list of things FI’s who know nothing, have nothing to add.

That's not what I'm saying at all. You're getting completely the wrong end of the stick, and I'm not having a go at FIs at all, or saying they know nothing or have nothing to add. Where have I actually said that? My point on the cross channel thing was essentially that if one's PPL doesn't provide one with the skills necessary to cross a pretty small body of water and operate in an environment far simpler than our own, then is something missing? I then imply that it's something of a cash cow, and of course I concede that if it's their aircraft it's their rules.

All I can report are the facts available to me. I wasn't taught to lean the mixture in any stage of flight. All flying during my PPL was done with the red lever fully forward, and it essentially served simply to turn off the engine after landing. Presumably we had a different instructor!

Most PPLs I have flown with since fly everywhere with the mixture fully rich. Please don't confuse most with all, and please don't think I'm having a pop at your new profession. It's a systemic thing and I'm sure it's better now than when I trained back in 2011, but things change slowly in aviation.

[Flyin'Dutch']

@TLRippon How is the course going?

[Remosflyer]

It's so easy to say 'If only...'

This short manual is required reading for any Swiss private pilot, unfortunately only available in German, but 'if only' all alpine pilots would consider just the 7 pages in the Chapter 'Flugtaktik' almost none of these tragic accidents would occur.



And that includes the recent JU52 disaster near Piz Segnas...

There must be similar publications for American pilots flying in the Rockies?

For what it's worth, my opinion is that he was probably distracted by the baby and his wife in the rear seats, and for some reason or other was unwilling to climb higher than 5,000ft until approaching the pass because of them; then it was 'Falsche Flugtaktik' with no 'Plan B'.

[TLRippon]

@TLRippon How is the course going?

All done and teaching my students how to lean as a matter of course.

[TLRippon]

.....All I can report are the facts available to me. I wasn't taught to lean the mixture in any stage of flight. All flying during my PPL was done with the red lever fully forward, and it essentially served simply to turn off the engine after landing. Presumably we had a different instructor!

Yes that is a disappointing deficiency. I'll tell you what! I'll teach you how to lean your aircraft, no charge.

[defcribed]

Yes that is a disappointing deficiency. I'll tell you what! I'll teach you how to lean your aircraft, no charge.

Most grateful, but I've kind of taught myself in the intervening years!

Always happy to hear more though. There are many ways to skin this particular cat, and as I'm not a fan of doctrine or 'best practice' I prefer to hear them all.

[Dave W]

John Deakin's Pelican's Perch article on mixture control is helpful. It's not overly dogmatic and discusses the "why?" as much as the "what?".

[defcribed]

John Deakin's Pelican's Perch article on mixture control is helpful. It's not overly dogmatic and discusses the "why?" as much as the "what?".

That was pretty much the first thing I read on the subject. Certainly I read it before I finished my PPL, but it was their aeroplane and their rules and it wasn't my place to debate operating technique with the instructor. I didn't feel that to debate the matter would be conducive to a smooth and easy ride through the 45 hours!

I've often read it again since, and I generally climb with the constant-EGT method.

Anyway, to try and get back on topic I think what is being suggested is that failure to manage the powerplant properly and/or failure to appreciate the effect of high density altitude on climb rates and best climb speeds is the sort of thing that could cause an accident like this.

I hypothesise that a significant number of PPLs in the UK would probably not manage the powerplant properly in those circumstances (probably by flying too rich or at less than max rpm) nor appreciate the effect of high density altitude on rate of climb and climb speeds.

[akg1486]

Anyway, to try and get back on topic I think what is being suggested is that failure to manage the powerplant properly and/or failure to appreciate the effect of high density altitude on climb rates and best climb speeds is the sort of thing that could cause an accident like this.

I hypothesise that a significant number of PPLs in the UK would probably not manage the powerplant properly in those circumstances (probably by flying too rich or at less than max rpm) nor appreciate the effect of high density altitude on rate of climb and climb speeds.

I sort of feel responsible to have started the thread drift, but it is an interesting thing to discuss: do pilots, wherever they are trained, learn too much about the "what/how" and not enough about the "why" to be able to adapt when placed in a new environment? Anyone who, like me, does his/her first mountain flying with a local checkout (in the Alps or in the Rockies) at least gets some instruction on engine management and other topics. Others who just fly from the lowlands to mountains need to draw the conclusions by themselves.

I agree with several posters above about the usefulness of the Pelican Perch articles.

(Of course we don't know if it was the mountains or something else that caused the terrible accident. Flying in Switzerland and Austria are high on my list of great flights, but also high on my list of the flight with the highest workload simply because of apprehension.)

[will c]

It's so easy to say 'If only...'

This short manual is required reading for any Swiss private pilot, unfortunately only available in German, but 'if only' all alpine pilots would consider just the 7 pages in the Chapter 'Flugtaktik' almost none of these tragic accidents would occur.

And that includes the recent JU52 disaster near Piz Segnas...

There must be similar publications for American pilots flying in the Rockies?

Yes for the self study pilot - Mountain Flying by Sparky Imeson. Sparky Imeson was killed in an aviation accident in 2009 in a valley in Colorado. One of my French mountain flying instructors was killed in the French alps in 2007. Flying is not without risk and that risk increases in the mountains.

[townleyc]

I can certainly agree that I was never trained to lean during my PPL back in 2007-2008. It was discussed, but no more.

However I only fly in the UK, and rarely above 3000ft

KE

[GrahamB]

I can certainly agree that I was never trained to lean during my PPL back in 2007-2008. It was discussed, but no more.

However I only fly in the UK, and rarely above 3000ft

KE

I lean my aircraft most of the time - on the ground, when cruising at any altitude, and now that I have full engine instrumentation, in the climb at any level as well.

My consumption at 65% power is typically 33 lph fully rich, and 26-27 lph leaned correctly. That's a tenner an hour saved in fuel, let alone the reduction in cost and hassle of fluffed up plugs, coked up valves etc.

[defcribed]

Altitude is not a barrier to leaning, only the amount of power being developed.

Most coking up happens at low revs fully rich. If you lean it aggressively on the ground you will be amazed how much cleaner your plugs are. Except when applying a lot of power to get an aircraft on soft grass moving away from rest, you aren't developing anywhere near enough power to damage your engine no matter how hard you lean it.

Leaning on the ground immediately after start up also helps bring the engine up to operating temperature more quickly. You burn less fuel, keep your plugs clean, spend less time sat around waiting for it to warm up and less time running with cold oil that isn't protecting the bearings as well as it does when hot. What's not to like?

[Rob P]

I'm uncertain how the 3,000 ft myth came into existence

Rob P

[Flyin'Dutch']

I'm uncertain how the 3,000 ft myth came into existence

Rob P

It also exists as a 4 and 5000ft myth.

My understanding is that it comes from the notion that below 65% you cannot damage the engine and that above 3/4/5kft you only get the 65%.

I know it as the 5000ft myth.

One gets disabused from not leaning as soon as you start flying anything with more than an O-320.

After getting my PPL my first 'job' was to make the Midlands unsafe with a Cherokee 6 (it had the dice painted on it - yup that long ago) Without leaning the fuel consumption of the Lycoming IO-540 is impressive.

We referred to the mixture handle as the 'money-stick'