Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
#1710733
Dave W wrote:There's no guarantee that current trials would be run in the same way.


That is why I said "These test are NOTAMed, usually last ..."

We're doomed! Not only are we going to get lost and infringe, but we're going to collide with each other because EC is affected too. :)
Last edited by patowalker on Tue Aug 06, 2019 8:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
#1710756
patowalker wrote:You'd have to search for past NOTAM, but a previous trial is mentioned here.

Jamming covers 433-915 MHz and 2.4-5.8 GHz. It could last up to 2 minutes at a maximum of 5-times per hour between 0900 and 2100 UTC.  The last day of the trial is 10 March 2019.


Those frequencies aren't GPS. I would think that's more likely to be drone jamming. Unlikely to follow the same patterns.
Iceman liked this
#1710764
Nomad63 wrote:
Irv Lee wrote:Is this a good time to say I'm looking at an autumn/winter programme for my Masterclasses? Far more than just infringements (and cheaper than infringing) but in the nav tips module look at GPS/TradNav integration including seamless transition 'if the ipad overheats and shuts down' (just like mine did the other week, but 'works' for GPS jams or power exhaustion too). I seem to have 5 interested around Wilts/Dorset (I am told) and possibly the same somewhere in the Goodwood-Shoreham-Redhill triangle

I might be interested, Cost? (dependent on numbers I assume, but a rough estimate)

Lots of info on http://www.metcetera.co.uk - I hold them where pilots register demand, always easier to arrange in South (where I am) but as you will see, Sherburn had two last year. If they are held in a club, (which needs a comfortable seminar room, not a buttock-challenging briefing room), they get cheaper rates for club members and as well as room hire and catering payments,and the difference between the 2 costs if they allow non-members attendance as a sort of temp member fee for the day. Compton Abbas had 2 or 3 Masterclasses last year and allowed non-members to attend the last one, Sherburn the same.
#1710796
Paul_Sengupta wrote:Those frequencies aren't GPS. I would think that's more likely to be drone jamming. Unlikely to follow the same patterns.


Thanks. Would a jamming trial require long periods of jamming? Would it not be sufficient to turn the jammer on, check its effect on pre-positioned airborne receivers spread about the area selected and then turn it off again?
#1710850
While I fully accept the Farmer's point, some of us fly IFR in IMC. Owing to the decommissioning of NAV aids, there are now many areas where GPS is the only option available, and many airfields where an RNAV approach is the default. GNSS jamming would introduce real hazards to such flight, and , I'm afraid to say, a VFR chart and stop-watch won't help.
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#1710871
TheFarmer wrote:Yes.

The elephant in the room here is that it’s ridiculous that we have become so reliant on something that can just be switched off, and we have always known this to be the case.

There are pilots out there (and I refuse to be convinced otherwise) who do simply turn on their tablet, create a magenta line whilst waiting for their engine to warm up, and go and fly.

This thread is a stark reminder why the whole ‘an electronic chart is sufficient to remain legal’ argument is totally flawed. It’s irresponsible and poor airmanship.

The last thing GA needs right now is a batch of millennial qualified PPL’s (who think the chart is simply for shading their iPad) perform a perfectly synchronised batch of major airspace busts because they couldn’t navigate without their beloved SkyDemon.


I’ll bite. It’s a quiet afternoon.

I find your phrase “I refuse to be convinced” bemusing.

There is very little if any evidence to suggest that GPS users are busting airspace in synchronised fashion or otherwise. On what are you basing your concern that this might now happen?

On the contrary, the FACTS are that those operating the old school map and stopwatch methodology are FAR MORE LIKELY to get lost and infringe airspace. According to Rob Gratton, chair of the Airspace Infringement Working Group for the CAA, in 2017 85% percent of airspace infringements would have been prevented by use of a moving map system.

Personally, I’m convinced.












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#1710905
TheFarmer wrote:
The last thing GA needs right now is a batch of millennial qualified PPL’s (who think the chart is simply for shading their iPad) perform a perfectly synchronised batch of major airspace busts because they couldn’t navigate without their beloved SkyDemon.


Quite, as of course all PPL instructors these days teach sole reliance on Skydemon to the exclusion of everything else, and all PPL FEs naturally make sure the entire nav test is flown exclusively using GPS and nothing else, especially if the student is a lazy millennial. And this never ever applies to older pilots.
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#1711000
steviem wrote:I find your phrase “I refuse to be convinced” bemusing.

There is very little if any evidence to suggest that GPS users are busting airspace in synchronised fashion or otherwise.


Errrrr, Sir, I didn’t actually say that, so please don’t twist my comments!

I was saying that something like jamming exercises will bring to light the reality of people flying with their eyes glued to their ‘devices’ and suddenly seeing something like like ‘SATELLITE SIGNAL LOST - REFER TO OWN NAVIGATION METHODS’.

That’s when the problems start, not through regular use of GPS.

I get fed up with people assuming I disagree with GPS.

For the last time....

I THINK GPS IS THE BEST THING SINCE SEE-THROUGH BLOUSES AND I USE IT A LOT. I FLY DAILY AND I USE SKYDEMON DAILY. ITS A GREAT APP AND I LOVE USING IT.

Ok, so that’s done....

My point (which for 15 years and 8 weeks since I’ve been on this forum has remained unchanged) is that it’s too relied upon, and this kind of jamming exercise has the potential to get people in hot water with the likes of people like Cub who, I’ve been told, are quite literally dying to promote infringement prosecutions as and when they can.
#1711010
TheFarmer wrote:My point (which for 15 years and 8 weeks since I’ve been on this forum has remained unchanged) is that it’s too relied upon, and this kind of jamming exercise has the potential to get people in hot water with the likes of people like Cub who, I’ve been told, are quite literally dying to promote infringement prosecutions as and when they can.


That’s clearly the opinion that you have. Is it supported by credible evidence or is it just a hunch?
#1711011
TheFarmer wrote:I THINK GPS IS THE BEST THING SINCE SEE-THROUGH BLOUSES AND I USE IT A LOT. I FLY DAILY AND I USE SKYDEMON DAILY. ITS A GREAT APP AND I LOVE USING IT.


:roll:

TheFarmer wrote:
My point (which for 15 years and 8 weeks since I’ve been on this forum has remained unchanged) is that it’s too relied upon, and this kind of jamming exercise has the potential to get people in hot water with the likes of people like Cub who, I’ve been told, are quite literally dying to promote infringement prosecutions as and when they can.


I highly, highly doubt Cub and colleagues are 'dying to promote infringement prosecutions'.
#1711019
TheFarmer wrote:
steviem wrote:I find your phrase “I refuse to be convinced” bemusing.

There is very little if any evidence to suggest that GPS users are busting airspace in synchronised fashion or otherwise.


Errrrr, Sir, I didn’t actually say that, so please don’t twist my comments!

I was saying that something like jamming exercises will bring to light the reality of people flying with their eyes glued to their ‘devices’ and suddenly seeing something like like ‘SATELLITE SIGNAL LOST - REFER TO OWN NAVIGATION METHODS’.

That’s when the problems start, not through regular use of GPS.

I get fed up with people assuming I disagree with GPS.

For the last time....

I THINK GPS IS THE BEST THING SINCE SEE-THROUGH BLOUSES AND I USE IT A LOT. I FLY DAILY AND I USE SKYDEMON DAILY. ITS A GREAT APP AND I LOVE USING IT.

Ok, so that’s done....

My point (which for 15 years and 8 weeks since I’ve been on this forum has remained unchanged) is that it’s too relied upon, and this kind of jamming exercise has the potential to get people in hot water with the likes of people like Cub who, I’ve been told, are quite literally dying to promote infringement prosecutions as and when they can.



No need to call me Sir, we’re all friends here. Indeed it’s only been 13 years since I joined the forum so technically, you are my superior.

I felt your point was pretty clear. My apologies if I’ve misrepresented you however. So, you are a user and a fan of GPS but in your opinion, there are a significant number (of others) who also use the system principally who are too cavalier in their approach to navigation planning and are therefore likely to get lost en masse when the system is compromised Correct?

. I agree with you in that a GPS jamming exercise has the potential to get GPS navigators in trouble. In the same way a VOR or NDB getting taken out of service has the potential to get RadNav people in trouble and in the same way as a change in airspace or activation of a RAT or DA or radio frequency has the potential for the map and stopwatch community to get in trouble if they have failed to to update the myriad changes to the real world system that occur, on their paper map since it was published. Any system has a potential to fail.

However, my point, which you have failed to address, is that there is no EVIDENCE that Pilot A who navigates principally using GPS is more likely to fail to spot the NOTAMed outage of his preferred system and get into trouble as a result than Pilot B, the radio nav girl is for her preferred system or for that matter Pilot C who is the paper map exponent.

Your opinion which despite your reluctance to relinquish it, is not, to my knowledge predicated on any objective evidence base. Unless you can point me to some, there is just no evidence that supports your view that GPS navigators as a section of the pilot community are more cavalier in their approach to flying than any other section. The infringement statistics certainly don’t support that view.

Anyway enough for one night. I’m off to bed. Happy Landings.










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