Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
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User avatar
By leemoore1966
#1713507
The software for this product has also, extracted and taken without permission, the aircraft database and spoken audio files from PilotAware, and subsequently included into its own product on github - I think taking without permission, is deemed as theft ?

Permission is then granted under its own license, to be used in commercial derivative works
User avatar
By TexasUK
#1713629
Tim Dawson wrote:If this product receives and decodes flarm encrypted signals without any license to do so from flarm, they are wide open to legal action and probably shouldn’t be taken seriously in any commercial sense.


The Flarm signal de-code software that he uses is open-source provided by someone else, and I believe that Flarm it is out of patent anyway (not quite sure how to describe that, but that the protocol isn't copyrighted / protected now or whatever)

And it isn't a commercial setup at all, he has released everything opensource and free, just points you to the parts you need to make it yourself.

It must seem strange, someone not trying to make a profit out of a safety product.
User avatar
By Tim Dawson
#1713632
I suggest you come back here once you have obtained some decent legal advice on the subject from a good firm specialising in IP law.

I have.
kanga, PaulB liked this
By rdfb
#1713645
"wide open to legal action" (which is what you said) isn't the same as "illegal" (which you didn't say). Commercial companies have to be mindful of the cost of dealing with potential legal action against them, even if they are in the right, and of the risk of losing even if there isn't any statute or precedent that makes their action clearly illegal. A legal advisor should quite rightly point this out and the appropriate action to take may well be to avoid getting involved even if the action cannot be shown to be illegal.

I'm interested to know if there's any specific statute, precedent or other law that clearly makes decoding the transmission without a "license" illegal. Can anyone point to anything specific?
By Buzz53
#1713654
Today:
Tim Dawson wrote:If this product receives and decodes flarm encrypted signals without any license to do so from flarm, they are wide open to legal action and probably shouldn’t be taken seriously in any commercial sense.


A little while back:
Tim Dawson wrote:Someone needs to set up a limited company, develop a device which receives and decodes flarm, and sell it or otherwise make it available. See if they get sued by flarm. I don’t believe they would, or if they did, that it would stand up. It’s a ridiculous notion that a position report, broadcast on a public use frequency (even if lightly “encrypted”) should be deemed proprietary to such an extent that another company receiving and decoding it would somehow be against a law.

A girl is always allowed to change her mind of course. :?
Boxkite liked this
#1713659
TexasUK wrote:And it isn't a commercial setup at all, he has released everything opensource and free, just points you to the parts you need to make it yourself.


How is it not commercial ?
You can purchase a TTGO with the SoftRF software pre-installed ?
https://rec.aviation.soaring.narkive.co ... ing-device

Effective from July 13th 2018, one Chinese OEM manufacturer (LilyGO) has started to ship
a "TTGO T-Beam" board ( 'LoRaWAN GNSS assets tracker' class of equipment)
with SoftRF firmware being pre-installed by default..


That sounds pretty commercial to me, a hardware device, with software pre-installed ?

I have no issue with the developers charging for a product they have developed under their own steam for commercial gain.
I do take issue that PilotAware data that we have developed has been obtained and unpacked in violation of our licenses and included for commercial gain, you may think that the defense of the FLARM proprietary format has no basis, what is your position on theft of data ?

https://github.com/lyusupov/SoftRF/blob ... fts/paw.db
https://github.com/lyusupov/SoftRF/blob ... voices.zip

I am sorry but that is utterly outrageous.
How can you take somebody else's IP and repackage to include in a commercial product ?
gaznav, kanga, PaulB liked this
User avatar
By TexasUK
#1713674
Well on the first point, all they are doing is taking the task of having to flash the board when you get it. Nobody makes any money from it, the board would (and does) cost exactly the same without being pre-flashed. He certainly doesn't make anything from it. That doesn't sound commercial to me. Might help sell some boards for the Chinese manufacturer perhaps.

As far as my personal position on using your files, I don't think I really have one on the data ones he has used. If he had copied some of your code, then that would be a different matter.
I'm sure he can record (or every else can themselves) the appropriate sound files for the position reports, although a bit of a monotonous task. I'm sure someone else will record some and make them available if you were to stop them being used.
I'd have to ask (because I really don't know) where did you get the aircraft data for PAW.db that he has used? I'm guessing that it was freely available from some source, and again I'm sure someone will compile the same info if you were to stop them being used. It seems to have OGN/FLN data in there as well, is there a common source somewhere? OGN is free to use as far as I can tell from the the licence it is under, so long as it is attributed somewhere.

I guess I can understand frustration, but I'm expecting SoftRF to be left behind like all others when ADS-B becomes the mandated standard. I just hope that someone altruistic can come up with the device using ADS-B that provides Flarm type collision avoidance for all forms of aviation at a reasonable price, so that we can all use it and potentially be safer than we are right now with lots of competing standards.
User avatar
By Tim Dawson
#1713679
That’s pretty funny, seeing those two quotes of mine put together like that :lol:

Guess what happened in between them. Legal advice!
Dave W, Buzz53, leemoore1966 and 4 others liked this
User avatar
By Tim Dawson
#1713680
TexasUK, it sounds like you could do with a refresher on copyright law.

The work somebody does, whether commercial (like PilotAware) or not, is theirs to say how other people may or may not use it. Someone stripping bits of Lee’s work out and packing it in their own product is completely out of order.
kanga, PaulB liked this
By Buzz53
#1713686
Tim Dawson wrote:That’s pretty funny, seeing those two quotes of mine put together like that :lol:

Guess what happened in between them. Legal advice!

Can you share that advice? It's a genuine question; the matter has often been debated on fora, enthusiastically but inconclusively in the absence of lawyers. What specifically is the issue, as several have been mooted?
Alan
User avatar
By Tim Dawson
#1713689
I suppose I could, but I’m not inclined to share the exact output as I paid quite a lot for it.

The long-story-short version is that it’s a court that will ultimately decide whether it’s legal or not (as someone alluded to above) and if Flarm wish to take action against you they will do so in a Swiss court (their being a Swiss company) in front of a Swiss judge and you will end up having to defend yourself in that environment. One could risk it, I suppose.

Also, pragmatically speaking, if you’re running a business in this industry you need appropriate insurance and you won’t get it (or it’ll be invalid) if you’re doing stuff like stealing other people’s IP.
gaznav liked this
User avatar
By Dave W
#1713692
It may be unfashionable, yet I also look at these things from a moral perspective as well as a legal one.

Stealing other people's effort and ideas is immoral.
GrahamB, G-BLEW, Tim Dawson and 5 others liked this
User avatar
By gaznav
#1713706
@TexasUK

I guess I can understand frustration, but I'm expecting SoftRF to be left behind like all others when ADS-B becomes the mandated standard. I just hope that someone altruistic can come up with the device using ADS-B that provides Flarm type collision avoidance for all forms of aviation at a reasonable price, so that we can all use it and potentially be safer than we are right now with lots of competing standards.


Image
Image

SkyEcho2 £443 with SkyDemon’s traffic view and a cheap £10 bluetooth earpiece inside your existing headset (if you wear one in a glider). That would give direct (no need for ground stations) reception, with audio and visual warning, for ADS-B and FLARM (if you buy SkyDemon’s £30/yr subscription). :thumright:
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