Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
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By Straight Level
#1711525
mooney75 wrote:
Straight Level wrote:Aha, so when you say 'Flarm' you actually mean 'PowerFLARM Portable'. That one must be like 15 years old by now. I only saw it once in a helicopter. I don't believe many people are using that particular model. Most pilots probably wouldn't want something as important as a collision avoidance system to be portable in the first place.

Wrong again M75
Flarm first appeared in 2004
Power flarm was developed in 2010 and the portable version still a current model a cording to the Flarm Web site.
It's still toy town for the money mooney ;-)
#1711526
Earlier this week whilst visiting Turweston I visited LX Avionics and tried to negotiate a deal on a PowerFlarmCore unit, thinking that maybe a 10% discount may be possible. However they told me that the weak £ versus the Swiss franc, where PowerFlarm is made, means that prices are about to rise quite sharply. Not alas good news for me or anyone in the UK who were considering going down this route.
Nice and possibly the best EC option it is I fear just too expensive !
By webdevduck
#1711548
GrahamB wrote:I disagree.

ADSB is the universal standard, and it’s now feasible for any airborne device from drone to A380 to transmit it at proportionate cost, low weight and low power consumption.

Gliders should make themselves conspicuous on the universal standard, not expect others to have to detect their niche protocol.


By far the biggest risk of mid-air collision for a glider is with another glider. With the majority of the UK fleet fitted with Flarm, it has proven to be an effective aid to significantly reduce this risk and is the de facto standard for gliders across Europe.

I would question that ADS-B is "the universal standard". Even just focusing on the power community, adoption of collision avoidance aids generally appears to be relatively low, and is it not the case that there are also multiple standards in use too (such as P3I)? ADS-B may now have been declared the preferred standard by the CAA, but Flarm was widely adopted by gliders well before this.

I would agree that it would be to the benefit of us all for all aircraft collision avoidance protocols and devices to be interoperable . It is a laudable aim to work towards and hopefully suitable products will be developed for the gliding community that are as inexpensive, light-weight and low-power as you claim. If they are, I would expect that over time they will be adopted and one day Flarm as we know it will be a relic of the past.

In the mean-time, I've not heard of any particular expectation among the gliding community that power pilots should have to detect a supposedly "niche protocol" as you call it. However, for those power pilots that do choose to receive Flarm, on a personal note I appreciate your efforts to make the sky safer for all of us.
Charliesixtysix, Dave W, dewidaniels and 2 others liked this
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By ls8pilot
#1711611
Straight Level wrote:
mooney75 wrote:
Straight Level wrote:Aha, so when you say 'Flarm' you actually mean 'PowerFLARM Portable'. That one must be like 15 years old by now. I only saw it once in a helicopter. I don't believe many people are using that particular model. Most pilots probably wouldn't want something as important as a collision avoidance system to be portable in the first place.

Wrong again M75
Flarm first appeared in 2004
Power flarm was developed in 2010 and the portable version still a current model a cording to the Flarm Web site.
It's still toy town for the money mooney ;-)


PowerFlarm Portable is relatively old now I think and quite bulky. LXNAV have a "FlarmEagle Portable" in their brochure, although I've not actually seen one (or a price) which looks much better. http://www.lxnavigation.com/flarm-eagle-mobile-2/ or LXnavigation have the "FlarmBat" https://gliding.lxnav.com/products/flarmbat/ which is priced on a number of sites.

However the prices do seem very high to me, once you have added ADSB reception you are getting well over £1500 near to Transponder basic costs and you still don't have ADSB-Out.

How about some enterprising UK electronics company taking out a Flarm licence and producing a nice Flarm/ADSB In/Out device for us at a reasonable price ? As far as I recall the initial Swiss Flarm was around £500 in 2004, so thats roughly £750 in todays money - so how about a combined device for under a £1000 ?

Although I have a SkyEcho I think it is pretty poor that the CAA are pushing a "standard" for which (after 2 years) there is still only one commercially available device!
gaznav liked this
By dewidaniels
#1711613
webdevduck wrote:In the mean-time, I've not heard of any particular expectation among the gliding community that power pilots should have to detect a supposedly "niche protocol" as you call it. However, for those power pilots that do choose to receive Flarm, on a personal note I appreciate your efforts to make the sky safer for all of us.


Me too.
gaznav liked this
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By neilmurg
#1711747
ls8pilot wrote:How about some enterprising UK electronics company ... a nice Flarm/ADSB In/(Out) device for us at a reasonable price ?
Hmm, interesting thought (i added a bracket)
By rjc101
#1711756
ADSB-Out is a huge development cost. uAvonix have had $10m in venture capital to get them going, their “cheap” ADSB-Out starts around $2000 each.

Have to wait for someone with huge venture capital backing, not looking for a quick return, to design and certify (in multiple jurisdictions) an OEM ADSB-Out module (ideally with integral certified GNSS receiver too) that is mass produced and available at a reasonable price. I’ve had a good rummage down the back of the sofa, sadly nothing there.
By rjc101
#1711758
neilmurg wrote:
ls8pilot wrote:How about some enterprising UK electronics company ... a nice Flarm/ADSB In/(Out) device for us at a reasonable price ?
Hmm, interesting thought (i added a bracket)

FLARM in could be very cheap, but they encrypt their data. So to do things legally you need to buy the FLARM OEM module, price available on signing the NDA. You can extrapolate the potential costs based on that.
By rjc101
#1711787
True, although I believe that SkyEcho is only certified for UK use, and I suspect subsidised to an extent. This is based on other hardware available from them, with less functionality, is four times the price.
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