Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
By KeithM
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1706903
Excuse my ignorance but just to satisfy my curiosity, what are the rules governing gliders flying in Class A airspace?

I’ve wondered in the past but never got around to asking the question!

Noticed, recently, a competition taking place with a NOTAM stating activity up to FL100 which is above the base of the overlying Class A.

Come to think of it, what about balloons?
By matspart3
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1706908
From the AIP ENR section....

Glider operations in Class A Airspace

In certain notified portions of Class A airspace, gliders are permitted to operate without reference to ATC in accordance with specified conditions and neither separation nor traffic information will be provided in respect of such flights. When such activity occurs, such airspace will be segregated from other traffic, which is provided with at least standard separation from the segregated airspace. Such segregated activities are undertaken in accordance with the flexible use of airspace provisions contained within Commission Regulation (EC) 2150 of 2005.
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By ls8pilot
#1706925
KeithM wrote:Excuse my ignorance but just to satisfy my curiosity, what are the rules governing gliders flying in Class A airspace?

I’ve wondered in the past but never got around to asking the question!

Noticed, recently, a competition taking place with a NOTAM stating activity up to FL100 which is above the base of the overlying Class A.

Come to think of it, what about balloons?


There are a couple of areas where gliders flying Class A:

    In certain areas, eg Scotland there are "wave boxes" or airway crossing boxes which may be opened to allow gliders to climb in wave or cross specific airways.
    For competition use only there are a few small "boxes" which (on request by the competition director) raise the base of some class A (typically by 1000ft) for a period - there is one for a small section of Airway between Newbury and Reading for example. These are only available on the day and for competitors in that competition.
    There are also some local agreements which specific clubs have to open up certain lower levels, but I think these only apply to Class D.

In general for competition flying no airspace penetration is allowed even if legal (it would give unfair advantage if one competitor got a Class D transit while others were refused). At a competition all pilots have their log files checked by computer to ensure no airspace penetration.

So the blanket "up to FL100" really only applies where the overlying base is higher. Note that a XC task can go up to 100nm from the start point (given the right weather). Longest task I've done in a comp took us from Lasham to Welshpool, then across to Cambridgeshire, then home via a few intermediate TP's.

When I started gliding in the 70's it was legal for gliders to cross airways in VFR so long as it was done at right angles to the direction of the airway, sort of like closing your eyes and running across the road :shock:
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By KeithM
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1706960
matspart3 wrote:From the AIP ENR section....

Glider operations in Class A Airspace

In certain notified portions of Class A airspace, gliders are permitted to operate without reference to ATC in accordance with specified conditions and neither separation nor traffic information will be provided in respect of such flights. When such activity occurs, such airspace will be segregated from other traffic, which is provided with at least standard separation from the segregated airspace. Such segregated activities are undertaken in accordance with the flexible use of airspace provisions contained within Commission Regulation (EC) 2150 of 2005.


Does that mean, in layman’s language, that other traffic would be routed/diverted by ATC, to keep clear of the gliders for the duration of a notified, and approved, gliding activity i.e. that it is a temporary clearance only?

In this instance, the NOTAM covers a 10 nm radius of Husband’s Bosworth, from the surface up to FL100. This takes in Daventry CTA with bases at 4500, 5500 and FL75 plus East Mids Class D with bases of 5500, FL65 and FL75.

What revived my curiosity was a concern expressed recently by fellow members of my RC model club, that we might, as a result of the NOTAM, have to cancel a forthcoming aerobatic competition this weekend! I have already advised them that this is not the case!
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By lobstaboy
#1706966
KeithM wrote:In this instance, the NOTAM covers a 10 nm radius of Husband’s Bosworth, from the surface up to FL100. This takes in Daventry CTA with bases at 4500, 5500 and FL75 plus East Mids Class D with bases of 5500, FL65 and FL75.

What revived my curiosity was a concern expressed recently by fellow members of my RC model club, that we might, as a result of the NOTAM, have to cancel a forthcoming aerobatic competition this weekend! I have already advised them that this is not the case!


As explained in an earlier post by ls8, competition gliders don't fly in controlled airspace. So they'll only go up to the base of the overlaying class A.

I think also that you misunderstand how notams work. Just because skydemon or whatever draws a 10nm circle around HusBos, that doesn't in any way define a volume of airspace that has to be avoided, or is closed to other traffic, or , importantly, that the gliders in the comp must stay inside.

The circle in effect says "if your flight takes you inside this area you probably need to know about this unusual activity". It's up to you to decide what to do about it (except if the notams is telling you about a temporary restricted area).

So definitely no need to cancel the RC comp!
By KeithM
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1706983
lobstaboy wrote:As explained in an earlier post by ls8, competition gliders don't fly in controlled airspace. So they'll only go up to the base of the overlaying class A.

I think also that you misunderstand how notams work. Just because skydemon or whatever draws a 10nm circle around HusBos, that doesn't in any way define a volume of airspace that has to be avoided, or is closed to other traffic, or , importantly, that the gliders in the comp must stay inside.

The circle in effect says "if your flight takes you inside this area you probably need to know about this unusual activity". It's up to you to decide what to do about it (except if the notams is telling you about a temporary restricted area).

So definitely no need to cancel the RC comp!


Having held a PPL since 2004, I do fully understand how Notams work and I did, in fact advise my club of how they work and that this was not restricted airspace (e.g. TRA) but merely advisory navigational information unless, as you say, specifically stated otherwise. Hence, my advice to them as previously stated.

I also did not restrict my original question to competition gliders.

We see, in fact, Bosworth gliders overhead our field regularly as Bosworth is nearby. We even have the occasional Apache on a surprise low level exercise! Yesterday, when the question came up, there were more than a dozen gliders in the overhead. I also pointed out that, especially with aero tow, a glider would be unlikely to ever clash with a model flown by a model pilot unless the latter had binocular vision and a total disregard for the rules and no common sense!

Sorry to change the subject slightly, but we in the organised, responsible and long established model flying fraternity, have enough problems with impending legislation threatening our hobby created by the recent arrival of a tiny minority of irresponsible “loners” misusing multi-rotor “drones” fitted with on-board live video cameras ((FPV).

The fact that someone in my club raised concerns with me about the NOTAM is testament to the diligence of the overwhelming majority of model flyers who have an exemplary safety record and would wish to retain it without being unfairly penalised.

Back to the original subject, I’m much clearer now and, once again, many thanks to the contributors to this forum for saving me, once again, from extended research!
Last edited by KeithM on Thu Jul 18, 2019 7:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
By AlanM
#1707060
Whilst we have no gliders here in Jersey, we do have VFR parachuting from FL110 in the Class A CTA most weekends.

We just send a NOTAM reclassifying the airspace as Class D (10nm of ARP from FL80-FL120)
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By KeithM
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1707071
What a coincidence!

Have just received latest amendments to “Pooley’s” flight guide which includes the Gliders Class A issue quoted previously and which was not previously included in the guide.

I would still be interested to know under what conditions it would be allowed, as inferred.

I would doubt that it has anything to do with ensuring fair competition amongst glider pilots, though!
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By xtophe
#1707089
AlanM wrote:some gliders were allowed in to areas of Class A such as the ‘Raglan Box’ near BCN...

Yes that's one of the areas mentioned by matspart3 and ls8pilot.

KeithM wrote:I would still be interested to know under what conditions it would be allowed, as inferred.


If you have trouble falling asleep, all the Letters of Agreement (LoA) describing the details of the dimensions, level, conditions and procedures to access the various areas are published here
By KeithM
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1707182
Thanks for the links. Read some, not all of it!

So, as I figured, gliders DO fly in controlled airspace, including Class A, albeit not routinely.

Lucky them!

As for balloons....... :)
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By James Chan
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1707400
Is there any reason why the airway, in these sections, cannot be reclassified to Class C then?
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By AlanM
#1707418
James

You can reclassify airspace if you want. Look at TRAs (FL195-FL245) and see how they change Mon-Fri!

(Class C -> Class G properties)