Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
By Shoestring Flyer
#1705565
neilmurg wrote:
Shoestring Flyer wrote:trying Rosetta may be an option however I don't do trailing wires and I would prefer to do a one time permanent installation.
I don't understand why a Rosetta permanent install at - say - £400 all in wouldn't be an option rather than a £2k PowerFlarm? Even if you decided it wasn't for you there's still 1/3 - 1/2 recoverable cost.


Yes Neil I am all for a low cost solution providing it is a one time excercise. As I have previously said though I want to do a permanent EC solution which will mean drilling holes for antennas, Pi4 etc. Also connecting to Dynon Skyviews etc all in my shiny 3year old aircraft. If I subsequently found I didn't like how Rosetta then performed I would be more than miffed to say the least. So it is a big decision!
Last edited by Shoestring Flyer on Thu Jul 11, 2019 5:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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By neilmurg
#1705566
dewidaniels wrote:
neilmurg wrote:I don't understand why a Rosetta permanent install at - say - £400 all in wouldn't be an option...
1. The Rosetta will only show FLARM targets when both the OP's aircraft and the glider are within range and line of sight of an OGN-R ground station.
2. The Rosetta will allow the OP to see the glider, but the glider won't be able to see the OP.
.....The OP would be able to sell the PowerFLARM very easily if he decided he didn't like it.
Yes all perfectly valid.
I wouldn't decry anyone's choice, it's interesting an informative to understand the different environments and objectives other pilots have.
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By gaznav
#1705620
Geraint Pinches wrote:Thanks gaznav. Forgive me, I’m technically clueless, but how do you then maintain the connection between the iPad and SkyEcho when you’re in the air (ie. out of WiFi signal)?


As Paul said already. The SkyEcho2 generates it’s own WiFi hotspot and you connect a tablet/smartphone to it. :thumright:
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By Paul_Sengupta
#1705659
Shoestring Flyer wrote:and have everything in/out covered


Well, apart from PilotAware, which is currently the largest group of puddlejumper EC transmitters out there!

If you drill a hole to install an antenna for the P3i for PilotAware, you can use the same antenna for Flarm. They work on the same frequency band.

And a 1090 ADS-B receive antenna will be the same regardless.
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By dewidaniels
#1705749
neilmurg wrote:I wouldn't decry anyone's choice, it's interesting an informative to understand the different environments and objectives other pilots have.


I agree. It's what makes electronic conspicuity so bewildering (and so fascinating).

Given that Shoestring Flyer has said that he wants a permanent installation and that he's concerned about gliders, I suggest that PowerFLARM Core would be the best solution, provided he can stomach the cost. ShoeString Flyer mentioned a V4 display, which I agree would be very useful. I suggest he also get something like an AIR Connect so that he can display traffic on SkyDemon (or whichever moving map display he uses). Adding PowerFLARM Core to his existing installation would give him FLARM and ADS-B in and out, which would allow him to see and make himself visible to the gliders, and provide collision warnings.

If Shoestring Flyer thinks PowerFLARM Core is too expensive (and who could blame him?), I suggest that a PilotAware Rosetta would be his next best choice. He already has ADS-B out, which negates the main advantage of SkyEcho. He also wants a permanent installation, whereas SkyEcho is a portable solution. Adding PilotAware to his existing installation would give him P3I, ADS-B. FLARM and Mode S in (FLARM and MLAT only when in range of a groundstation) and P3I and ADS-B out. This solution would allow him to see the gliders (subject to being in range of a groundstation), but they wouldn't be able to see him.

Paul_Sengupta has pointed out that the same antennae would work with either PilotAware or PowerFLARM.
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By gaznav
#1705754
@dewidaniels

Hi Dewi, the only thing I can fault with that would be that PAW is also a portable installation unless you take it apart - but then you could take apart any portable installation and make it permanent. But the real issue here will be if @Shoestring Flyer is flying a CofA aircraft as the modification costs to permanently fit a PAW will be expensive - even for a Permit machine, the cost and effort is not insignificant for a permanent install of something that hasn’t been done before on that aircraft type.

So the PFLARM Core might be cheaper in the grand scheme of things?

Best, Gaz
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By neilmurg
#1705763
dewidaniels wrote:Adding PowerFLARM Core to his existing installation would give him FLARM and ADS-B in and out
AFAIK it's not ADSBin/out. From the PAw Multilateration thread FLARMCoreADSB is only ADSBin FLARM spec ADSBin
It's tricky to keep it all straight with what's in, in/out, direct FLARM, OGNR indirect FLARM, mode C/S bearingless MLAT Mode S
gaznav wrote:But the real issue here will be if @Shoestring Flyer is flying a CofA aircraft as the modification costs to permanently fit a PAW will be expensive - even for a Permit machine
That's the same cost for installing those aerials for the FLARMCore isn't it Gaz? @Shoestring Flyer's issue, I thought, was direct FLARMin/out.

If SF has more confidence in the FLARM then fine (and he's the only one with a vote anyway). As I said it's not for me to judge. His balance of decisions seem to be:
FLARM direct/indirect
Cost
Reliability/permanence of the installation
*NOTE I edited/added to this reply which is potentially confusing for following posts
Last edited by neilmurg on Fri Jul 12, 2019 12:32 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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By gaznav
#1705765
neilmurg wrote:
dewidaniels wrote:Adding PowerFLARM Core to his existing installation would give him FLARM and ADS-B in and out
AFAIK it's not ADSBin/out. From the PAw Multilateration thread FLARMCoreADSB is only ADSBin FLARM spec ADSBin
It's tricky to keep it all straight with what's in, in/out, direct FLARM, OGNR indirect FLARM, mode C/S bearingless MLAT Mode S


In that case, then he will need to decide what is going to maximise getting him SEEN the most out of FLARM, P3i and ADS-B:

FLARM - seen by all FLARM, SkyEcho and PAW (when in range of a working OGN-R).

ADS-B - seen by all PAW, SkyEcho and some FLARM models.

P3i - seen only by other PAW users.

So really this would point to installing something that either emits ADS-B or FLARM? :thumright:
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By Ian Melville
#1705766
gaznav wrote:@dewidaniels

...the only thing I can fault with that would be that PAW is also a portable installation unless you take it apart - but then you could take apart any portable installation and make it permanent. ..


Removing a cover with one finger is hardly “take it apart”
They even offer two different installation kits for fitted installations.
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By neilmurg
#1705770
No @gaznav, he has more control by seeing.
But here's me discussing the merits and you deciding what's best for him. He deserves better [edit]I include me in that[/edit]
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By Paul_Sengupta
#1705774
Ian Melville wrote:Removing a cover with one finger is hardly “take it apart”
They even offer two different installation kits for fitted installations.


And you only have to remove that cover to swap the USB plug in GPS for one on a lead to be able to position it more readily. The case already has a notch for the GPS wire. The antenna connections are SMA, on the other end of the case.

Note:

Shoestring Flyer wrote:I already have ADSB out via Trig Tx.
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By gaznav
#1705776
Ian Melville wrote:
gaznav wrote:@dewidaniels

...the only thing I can fault with that would be that PAW is also a portable installation unless you take it apart - but then you could take apart any portable installation and make it permanent. ..


Removing a cover with one finger is hardly “take it apart”
They even offer two different installation kits for fitted installations.


It must be more than that or do the antennae and Raspberry Pi just fall out too? Anyway, either way, if it is a permanent installation it needs Mod Approval - even for an LAA aircraft:

LAA MOD 7: https://www.lightaircraftassociation.co ... lation.pdf

I’m guessing as PAW is intended to be portable then the following applies when it is not installed permanently: “Temporarily installed portable equipment does not require to be listed below but ‘hand-held’ radios do require the issue of an Aircraft Radio Licence.”

However, as soon as you install it permanently then you will need to have that MOD 7 paperwork completed to the satisfaction of the LAA.

Now the question would be for a permanent install is whether PAW complies with this requirement in LAA TL 3.03:

“All radio equipment including portable equipment and transponders installed in UK aircraft must be of a type that has undergone an appropriate approval process by either EASA, the CAA or the FAA.”

http://www.lightaircraftassociation.co. ... ations.pdf

So in summary, to permanently fit a PAW in even a Permit to Fly machine, I believe you need the installation approved, checked by a suitably qualified LAA Inspector or CAA-Licensed Avionics Engineer, a suitable circuit breaker fitted and a flight test. Unless there is a standing Mod for this for the particular aircraft type and then some of the process can be shortened.

So not really just a matter of sliding off the top cover is it?

:thumright:
By chrisadams
#1705778
I expect I’m wrong, but on one of these threads I seem to recall Shoestringflyer stating that he is already pushing out ADS-B hence (possibly) dewidaniels assertion.

Concerning the cost of a permanent PAW install in a LAA Permit to Fly aircraft, the cost can be really quite small. I was using a home built “Classic” and just purchased an additional PAW antenna and 2 coax cable assemblies plus the GPS mouse for not a lot of money from PilotAware. Both antennas mounted on the metal underside wing root fillet on the Eurostar (1. for PAW tx/rx, 2. for 1090/ ADS-B reception ). GPS Velcro’d to glareshield with cable to PAW hidden. Additionally, for ADS-B Out, about £20 for an FTDI RS232/ USB converter cable from Farnell , plus a few cable ties to mount the PAW unit on a crossmember behind the panel. Power via Anker plug in USB converter (less than £10). Testing for ADS- B Out for LAA approval , extremely simple/ straight forward process. No fee. :)

Audio into headsets via the radio in-built intercom aux input via a cheap homebuilt amplifier, but with Bluetooth availability on the latest PAW Pi3 processor, I’d just get a £10 Bluetooth receiver and connect it to the headsets that way .
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By dewidaniels
#1705785
neilmurg wrote:AFAIK it's not ADSBin/out. From the PAw Multilateration thread FLARMCoreADSB is only ADSBin


Shoestring Flyer said that he has ADS-B out already.

neilmurg wrote:If SF has more confidence in the FLARM then fine (and he's the only one with a vote anyway). As I said it's not for me to judge. His balance of decisions seem to be:
FLARM direct/indirect
Cost
Reliability/permanence of the installation


There's also whether he wants FLARM out or whether he's happy with FLARM in only.

I agree that only Shoestring Flyer can decide what's best for him.
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By gaznav
#1705790
chrisadams wrote:I expect I’m wrong, but on one of these threads I seem to recall Shoestringflyer stating that he is already pushing out ADS-B hence (possibly) dewidaniels assertion.

Concerning the cost of a permanent PAW install in a LAA Permit to Fly aircraft, the cost can be really quite small. I was using a home built “Classic” and just purchased an additional PAW antenna and 2 coax cable assemblies plus the GPS mouse for not a lot of money from PilotAware. Both antennas mounted on the metal underside wing root fillet on the Eurostar (1. for PAW tx/rx, 2. for 1090/ ADS-B reception ). GPS Velcro’d to glareshield with cable to PAW hidden. Additionally, for ADS-B Out, about £20 for an FTDI RS232/ USB converter cable from Farnell , plus a few cable ties to mount the PAW unit on a crossmember behind the panel. Power via Anker plug in USB converter (less than £10). Testing for ADS- B Out for LAA approval , extremely simple/ straight forward process. No fee. :)

Audio into headsets via the radio in-built intercom aux input via a cheap homebuilt amplifier, but with Bluetooth availability on the latest PAW Pi3 processor, I’d just get a £10 Bluetooth receiver and connect it to the headsets that way .


Hi Chris

Most of that wouldn’t be termed a permanent install as it sounds like you are running it from a fused accessory socket and using cable ties/velcro to temporarily fix it to the aircraft. So, it’s really only how you have mounted the antennae on the metal wing root fillets. That sounds like a Mod and even if cable tied on outside the aircraft then it would probably be deemed the same as things like Go-Pro cameras and what is in CAP1369.

https://publicapps.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP%201369.pdf

Best, Gaz