Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
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By Paul_Sengupta
#1705519
Shoestring Flyer wrote:Is it still possible to connect 'something'...Mouse or whatever to PilotAware Rosetta to receive Flarm direct instead of via OGNR?


Yes. If the Flarm device has an RS232 output, you can use a USB-Serial converter plugged into the PilotAware to connect it.

If you do most of your flying in the UK (or Germany now ;-) ), I'd suggest trying the PilotAware on its own before shelling out for a Flarm device as well, just to see how it goes.
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By Shoestring Flyer
#1705543
Ok thanks thats great info about the RS232 output , however I was sort of hoping someone was going to give me a lead on which was the best, sensibly priced, Flarm device to get that would be compatible with Rosetta?

It is the 30% of OGNR sites seemingly at any one time not being on-line that I am concerned about hence wanting direct Flarm traffic input.
By dewidaniels
#1705547
Shoestring Flyer wrote:Ok thanks thats great info about the RS232 output , however I was sort of hoping someone was going to give me a lead on which was the best, sensibly priced, Flarm device to get that would be compatible with Rosetta?


As far as I know, the cheapest (relative term, I know) FLARM device is currently the LX Navigation FLARM Eagle at £720. You could try looking on https://adverts.gliderpilot.net/ and https://www.segelflug.de/osclass/ for a second-hand FLARM, but they don't seem to come up very often. Most people seem to keep their FLARM units until they die, then replace them with a new one. My FLARM is an F5 made in 2005 and still going strong (and still supported by free firmware updates from FLARM).
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By Paul_Sengupta
#1705549
Shoestring Flyer wrote:Ok thanks thats great info about the RS232 output , however I was sort of hoping someone was going to give me a lead on which was the best, sensibly priced, Flarm device to get that would be compatible with Rosetta?


Probably this:

http://www.lxnavigation.com/flarm-eagle/
https://lxavionics.co.uk/index.php?route=product/product&path=102_63&product_id=928

Though this isn't much more and seems to have antenna diversity:

https://lxavionics.co.uk/index.php?route=product/product&path=102_63&product_id=1402

So does this:

https://lxavionics.co.uk/index.php?route=product/product&path=102_63&product_id=346

Sensibly priced and Flarm don't seem to go together.

Shoestring Flyer wrote:It is the 30% of OGNR sites seemingly at any one time not being on-line that I am concerned about hence wanting direct Flarm traffic input.


But as has been said before on here, there's overlap, so sites being down probably aren't a huge problem unless they're on the edges. There's no harm in trying it out and seeing how you go. If you find you're not getting the coverage you want, you can a) Install your own OGN-R site, or b) Buy a Flarm unit to connect in. The benefit of (b) is that you'll also be visible to Flarm users.
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By Shoestring Flyer
#1705552
Thanks for the info.
Very useful and confirmed my thinking that 'direct in' can't be done at a sensible cost using Rosetta.
Your thinking of trying Rosetta may be an option however I don't do trailing wires and I would prefer to do a one time permanent installation.
I do like the idea of 'direct in' and keep coming back to thinking of biting the cost bullet and going PowerFlarmCore connected to a V4 display. The I would get antenna diversity and have everything in/out covered. Also that way no on-going subscriptions to anyone.
I already have ADSB out via Trig Tx.

As an aside I emailed Uavionix a week ago for a launch update on their promised Flarmbridge but so far no reply other that an acknowledgement ticket.
Last edited by Shoestring Flyer on Thu Jul 11, 2019 4:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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By dewidaniels
#1705553
Paul_Sengupta wrote:Though this isn't much more and seems to have antenna diversity:

https://lxavionics.co.uk/index.php?route=product/product&path=102_63&product_id=1402

So does this:

https://lxavionics.co.uk/index.php?route=product/product&path=102_63&product_id=346


Activation of the second antenna is an extra cost option on both the LXNAV PowerMouse and the PowerFLARM Core. You should have guessed that from your next comment below ;)

Paul_Sengupta wrote:Sensibly priced and Flarm don't seem to go together.


Agreed. They were a bit more affordable a few years ago (I seem to remember the FlarmMouse being just less than £500), but prices went up noticeably when the pound dropped relative to the euro.

Paul_Sengupta wrote:But as has been said before on here, there's overlap, so sites being down probably aren't a huge problem unless they're on the edges.


That may be true in the flatlands, but gliders drop off OGN when quite close to our airfield, as there are mountains in the way.
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By dewidaniels
#1705555
Shoestring Flyer wrote:I do like the idea of 'direct in' and keep coming back to thinking of biting the cost bullet and going PowerFlarmCore connected to a V4 display. The I would get antenna diversity and have everything in/out covered. Also that way no on-going subscriptions to anyone.


I do agree that PowerFLARM Core with ADS-B out is the gold standard for electronic conspicuity at the moment, although the cost is high. The other advantage of PowerFLARM is that gliders would be able to see you, as well as you being able to see them.

What about a SkyEcho 2? Admittedly, you'd have to use SkyDemon and pay £30 per annum for FLARM reception. Also, you'd be able to see gliders, but they'd only be able to see you if they had ADS-B in (most gliders are still using Classic FLARM, so don't have ADS-B in).

A PilotAware Rosetta is a very cost-effective solution. You'd see aircraft fitted with PilotAware, ADS-B, FLARM and Mode S (FLARM and MLAT are available only when both you and the target are within range and line of sight of an OGN-R groundstation). Again, gliders wouldn't be able to see you unless they had ADS-B in.

It all depends on how many gliders there are where you normally fly and how much you're willing to pay for direct FLARM in (and out) instead of OGN-R rebroadcast.
By dewidaniels
#1705556
Shoestring Flyer wrote:I keep hoping for someone else to enter this market but it is probably a forlorn hope!


I'd be surprised to see a new entrant in the FLARM market, unfortunately. Most glider pilots have bought FLARM already. I don't see FLARM being taken up widely by the GA community except in the Alps. I think gliders will continue to use FLARM for a long time as FLARM have sold so many units already and no one else has yet implemented anything comparable to FLARM's collision avoidance algorithms.
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By neilmurg
#1705559
Shoestring Flyer wrote:trying Rosetta may be an option however I don't do trailing wires and I would prefer to do a one time permanent installation.
I don't understand why a Rosetta permanent install at - say - £400 all in wouldn't be an option rather than a £2k PowerFlarm? Even if you decided it wasn't for you there's still 1/3 - 1/2 recoverable cost.

Having said that, that's from my perspective / wallet and I really like your proposed solution.
I must try and get a flight in a PowerFlarm equipped aircraft to increase my understanding, my feeling is that I'd miss having the MLAT Mode S targets, and I avoid areas with concentrations of gliders.

Although most of the time I have bvgg3r all to look out for anyway. The price per target avoided is quite high even on the cheapest system.
By dewidaniels
#1705560
Shoestring Flyer wrote:As an aside I emailed Uavionix a week ago for a launch update on their promised Flarmbridge but so far no reply other that an acknowledgement ticket.


I've no idea what's happening with the FLARMbridge. I assumed the FLARMbridge was aimed at people like me who had a FLARM already. By the time you've bought a Flarm Eagle for £720, a SkyEcho 2 for £443 and a FLARMbridge for £239, you might as well have bought a PowerFLARM Core ADS-B for £1,335, which does everything in one box for less money. The figures make even less sense if you buy a PowerFLARM Core Pure for£972.
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By Shoestring Flyer
#1705561
Thanks all for the thoughts...
Being in close proximity to a gaggle of gliders I find is so disconcerting. Which way they are going to go is so unpredictable and we are now in what I call the 'silly' season for glider competitions so they are forefront of my mind at the moment!
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By dewidaniels
#1705563
neilmurg wrote:I don't understand why a Rosetta permanent install at - say - £400 all in wouldn't be an option rather than a £2k PowerFlarm? Even if you decided it wasn't for you there's still 1/3 - 1/2 recoverable cost.


Two reasons:

1. The Rosetta will only show FLARM targets when both the OP's aircraft and the glider are within range and line of sight of an OGN-R ground station.

2. The Rosetta will allow the OP to see the glider, but the glider won't be able to see the OP.

I agree that £1,600 is a lot to pay for that additional functionality, but whether it's worth it depends on the OP's budget and how often he flies in areas of high glider activity.

The OP would be able to sell the PowerFLARM very easily if he decided he didn't like it. Also, my FLARM is 14 years old. I doubt if a Rosetta will last that long :)