Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
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By Sooty25
#1705119
AlanM wrote:You still want ME to pay for Airspace Infringements because you can not navigate using a map, your eyes, a GNS430?

(Being Devil’s Advocate here)


Well if airspace is cramped and crowded because you want your stag party abroad, rather than down the local, I don't see why YOU shouldn't contribute less than the cost of a pint to running a safer sky! :D
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By GonzoEGLL
#1705127
Sooty25 wrote:
GonzoEGLL wrote:More advocating......Where do the controllers come from?


Use those quids to train some?


You’ll find every ATC training establishment in Europe is working to max capacity already, servicing the current needs.
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By defcribed
#1705140
A more restrictive environment = more controllers required = strong job market = what's not to like? I'd be all over that.
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By AlanM
#1705146
I am pretty sure most ATCOs have no fear of their job security.

You really need to understand the psyche of an average ATCO. I go to work, talk to planes for 37 hours per week. I actually have little interest in the rest.
User avatar
By defcribed
#1705151
AlanM wrote:I am pretty sure most ATCOs have no fear of their job security.

You really need to understand the psyche of an average ATCO. I go to work, talk to planes for 37 hours per week. I actually have little interest in the rest.


But enough to spend a fair bit of time on here ;-)

If my trade ceased to exist tomorrow then I'd apply for ATCO training with NATS. I'd enjoy it more than what I do now, but without necessity I wouldn't subject myself to the training wage.
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By Sooty25
#1705153
GonzoEGLL wrote:
Sooty25 wrote:
GonzoEGLL wrote:More advocating......Where do the controllers come from?


Use those quids to train some?


You’ll find every ATC training establishment in Europe is working to max capacity already, servicing the current needs.


Use some of those quids to build another!
By cockney steve
#1705155
@GonzoEGLL said

You’ll find every ATC training establishment in Europe is working to max capacity already, servicing the current needs.

Isn't that a damning indictment of the total lack of forward planning (and, more importantly, action ) by those charged with the administration?

How come the airliner -manufacturers and the Commercial Pilot schools have been geared-up for the projected growth in demand, for years, even before the end of the last slump,- yet the regulatory authorities all knew that controllers would be retiring, /natural wastage/ yet they sat blindly by, watching the train-crash approaching ?
Surely it's their duty to ensure that there are sufficient training- facilities and staff in place to meet the needs of the industry?

There again, I'm not , and never have been a qualified person in any aspect of Aviation, so what would I know , eh? :roll:
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User avatar
By AlanM
#1705156
defcribed wrote:
AlanM wrote:I am pretty sure most ATCOs have no fear of their job security.

You really need to understand the psyche of an average ATCO. I go to work, talk to planes for 37 hours per week. I actually have little interest in the rest.


But enough to spend a fair bit of time on here ;-)

If my trade ceased to exist tomorrow then I'd apply for ATCO training with NATS. I'd enjoy it more than what I do now, but without necessity I wouldn't subject myself to the training wage.


Yep. Assuming you get through the psychometric tests!! ;-)
User avatar
By defcribed
#1705163
I'd better used an assumed name.

Seriously though, it is a fantastic option. They continue to lie about 'pilot shortages' but qualifying still costs an arm and a leg. ATC actually does have shortages, and whaddayaknow, the employer picks up a big training bill for each person...
User avatar
By GonzoEGLL
#1705186
cockney steve wrote:@GonzoEGLL said

You’ll find every ATC training establishment in Europe is working to max capacity already, servicing the current needs.

Isn't that a damning indictment of the total lack of forward planning (and, more importantly, action ) by those charged with the administration?

How come the airliner -manufacturers and the Commercial Pilot schools have been geared-up for the projected growth in demand, for years, even before the end of the last slump,- yet the regulatory authorities all knew that controllers would be retiring, /natural wastage/ yet they sat blindly by, watching the train-crash approaching ?
Surely it's their duty to ensure that there are sufficient training- facilities and staff in place to meet the needs of the industry?

There again, I'm not , and never have been a qualified person in any aspect of Aviation, so what would I know , eh? :roll:


It’s not a simple matter, because the environment for airport/approach ATC is different to that of en-route ATC, but one of the main reasons is that airports see ATC as a large cost that needs to be reduced (they won’t pay for an overbearing of staff) and the CAA and the SES performance scheme has forced en-route NATS to cut costs to allow reduced route charges.

The ATC unions, Guild and NATS themselves all warned the CAA and airlines of the impact of this course of action.

Comparing pilot training to ATC training is not a fair comparison.
#1705190
It’s not a simple matter, because the environment for airport/approach ATC is different to that of en-route ATC, but one of the main reasons is that airports see ATC as a large cost that needs to be reduced (they won’t pay for an overbearing of staff) and the CAA and the SES performance scheme has forced en-route NATS to cut costs to allow reduced route charges.


Is this a part of UK ATC or does it apply across Europe as well, because it looks like the usual penny wise pound foolish disease at first glance. Moreover a joined up system would typically be more efficient thus improving ATCO productivity and reducing pressure.