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Re: Infringements

PostPosted:Sat Jul 13, 2019 1:14 pm
by skydriller
gaznav wrote:But you do have a right of appeal or hearing - you can elect to fight what the panel decide in Court. Also, people say here that they wouldn’t be able to afford that - well that is exactly what Legal Aid was set up for from the Legal Services Commission.


gaznav wrote:If you feel that aggrieved at being wronged, and your case is clear cut, then you could ask to take it to Magistrates Court to be heard. The costs involved are normally only a few hundred quid if you are really that convinced that the panel have got it wrong - you would also be entitled to costs incurred if the Authority were found to be in the wrong.


@gaznav

My friend, you obviously do not really know how the system works. For ANY kind of charge that will 100% result in a fine, there is ABSOLUTELY NO POINT in fighting it, unless you yourself happen to be a lawyer that understands that part of the law. I well recall actually going to a Lawyer when married to my ex-wife regarding a traffic offence that I felt she was charged with unjustifiably after an accident. The advice given that I paid for was "You DO have a case, I think you were unfairly charged, but there is a small chance you will lose and the costs will be £xxxx, 10x the fine, the fine will be £xxx, just plead guilty and pay it".

That is the way it is.

Regards, SD..

Re: Infringements

PostPosted:Sat Jul 13, 2019 2:05 pm
by Flyin'Dutch'
SD,

A traffic offence, unless it is very serious, is not going to result in a criminal record which does for some people/professions unpleasant consequences.

So if one is charged there may be more impetus to challenge an infringement if one has evidence that the charge was incorrect.

Having said that, as I understand it, an infringement whereby the resulting action is either the online course or the GASCO course, then that will not result in a criminal record as there was no charge made and nor has it gone through court.

Re: Infringements

PostPosted:Sat Jul 13, 2019 5:18 pm
by Full Metal Jackass
Miscellaneous wrote:
Full Metal Jackass wrote:PS: Just heard about a flying club sending an email to all their pilots, making them aware about a possible issue in a Moving Map software which meant that the default levels for blending out airspace varied - on individual iPads; on one, it defaulted to an altitude which meant that a particular piece of Class D airspace overhead would have automatically been blended out and an infringement could have been the result.

How about more detail so we can learn from it and prevent becoming victims? :wink:


I'm just following what the CAA do. Hide the information. And then whinge when people infringe. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

OK, meanwhile back on Planet Earth. The situation is, as far as I can make out, as follows:

a possible problem with airspace infringement was identified when using SD insofar that airspace can be ignored above a certain level which could potentially cause an infringement.

The cure is to go into the Layers box at the bottom right of the main screen. Enter this and scroll down to “Automatic Decluttering”. There you can set a default level above which airspace will be ignored. On 3 different tablets / ipads, there were 3 different levels defaulted to, one of which meant that airspace nearby could have been overlooked and subsequently infringed.

Nobody could explain why one iPad had a lower default level set. So, if you install SD onto a new iPad / tablet or are flying with someone who has SD installed, check that the declutter default is compatible with the area you are flying in - ie, if you have class D from 4500 - FL075, don't have it default to ignore airspace above 4000 feet, especially if you intend to fly at that altitude or higher - with that particular default setting, you would have had no warning about the upcoming airspace.

Re: Infringements

PostPosted:Sat Jul 13, 2019 5:30 pm
by Dave W
That's not how the Automatic Decluttering feature works.

It doesn't switch off everything above a set altitude; it switches off airspace above a value relative to the altitude at which you are flying. So you will always see airspace at least 500ft (minimum settable value) before you reach it if you have the feature enabled.

If you don't have it enabled then of course you'll see the airspace anyway.

Re: Infringements

PostPosted:Sat Jul 13, 2019 6:45 pm
by Tim Dawson
Dave is right. Somebody has badly misunderstood that tool.

If you plan a flight near some airspace, the setting is overridden and the airspace appears.

Regardless of what you have planned, if you fly anywhere near it, the setting is overridden and the airspace appears.

Regardless of whether you’ve hidden everything on your map entirely, you’ll still be warned about it with an alarm and speech.

Re: Infringements

PostPosted:Sat Jul 13, 2019 7:14 pm
by PaulB
Is it possible (I don’t want to experiment with my live SD) to *plan* a flight say through some class D (for example) where the view of that class D is suppressed in the planning mode, then fly the resulting plog, with SD on the floor or in the door pocket or wherever those who rarely look at it might put it so that you neither hear nor see the warning in flight?

Ok it seems a rather bizarre way to configure & use a moving map planning and navigation app, but there’ll always be one who does use it that way.

Also, are the CAS alerts that Tim mentioned earlier also “unsupressable” for MATZ, ATZ and other areas that you may want to or have to avoid?

Re: Infringements

PostPosted:Sat Jul 13, 2019 11:42 pm
by Longfinal
It is perfectly acceptable to plan a route on SD and then print out the briefing pack - PLOG, chart with track etc. Drawing a line on the CAA chart is but one alternative.

The poll should really seek to ascertain how people plan their flights. I am appalled how many people arriving at my home airfield (even in complex aircraft) who, when asked by ATC if they are familiar with the, non-standard OHJ, say “no”. It’s in Pooleys, the AIP and on the website but well over half (and that’s being generous) haven’t bothered to familiarise themselves I suspect it is that complacency that contributes to infringements.

Sadly, there is complacency which gives too many too much self-belief.

Re: Infringements

PostPosted:Sat Jul 13, 2019 11:50 pm
by flybymike
Just in case I ever visit your ATC non standard OH join airfield, where is it?

(I will of course research it as well.)

Re: Infringements

PostPosted:Sun Jul 14, 2019 12:06 am
by James Chan
when asked by ATC if they are familiar with the, non-standard OHJ, say “no”.


Wow. Really? Is it the lazier bunch who just want vectors to final? :wink:

Maybe ATC should put them into the holding stack instead so they can have some time to read up on the OHJ.... :lol:

Re: Infringements

PostPosted:Sun Jul 14, 2019 7:46 am
by Flyin'Dutch'
Flarepath

I made good on the promise below.

Check your mailbox and feel free to PM me if you get stuck.

Flyin'Dutch' wrote:I can help you with that.

Bit busy today but will get back to you tomorrow.

Re: Infringements

PostPosted:Sun Jul 14, 2019 8:05 am
by FlarePath
Mailbox is empty? but if the poll I see RE: pre-flight planning is your input, then thank you and it is just as I would have put together.

Re: Infringements

PostPosted:Sun Jul 14, 2019 6:06 pm
by tomshep
So the problem is due to having three Ipads in play at once, is it? Time to start switching off some of the tinsel and start remembering how to fly properly. It requires concentration.

Re: Infringements

PostPosted:Sun Jul 14, 2019 6:50 pm
by peterh337
"Peter, it is clear that your 2 infringements and the subsequent management of the process has affected you badly and made you super bitter."

That is bollox, Frank.

Personalisation of bitterness is standard childish human behaviour and you Frank have fallen for it like a 5 year old Little Johnny who behaved like a little sh*t at school and got reprimanded so he comes home saying "Mummmmmyyyyy, the teacher, Miss Stevens, doesn't love me anymore".

I publicise these issues to help other pilots.

That is also why way back I started writing up a load of detailed trip reports.
http://peter2000.co.uk/aviation/

And why with another pilot I set up http://www.euroga.org, a serious moderated forum, in 2012, following the meltdown of certain UK sites as serious discussion platforms.

I do way more to promote GA than most people.

The only reason I posted the stuff here is because most UK pilots read this forum.

You don't have to like it. But personalising your bitterness is not an adult way of holding a debate, and everybody can see that.

I have been away a few days so haven't read the intervening posts.

The new CAA regime will severely affect GA in the UK.

Re: Infringements

PostPosted:Sun Jul 14, 2019 7:18 pm
by Flyin'Dutch'
peterh337 wrote:"Peter, it is clear that your 2 infringements and the subsequent management of the process has affected you badly and made you super bitter."

That is bollox, Frank.

Personalisation of bitterness is standard childish human behaviour and you Frank have fallen for it like a 5 year old Little Johnny who behaved like a little sh*t at school and got reprimanded so he comes home saying "Mummmmmyyyyy, the teacher, Miss Stevens, doesn't love me anymore".



:shock:

I have no need/appetite to end up in a virtual spat with you over this, I appreciate you writing about your experiences as I think that helps us to get an insight into how things are done and experienced.

Maybe I got confused then by the words and expressions you used.

Re: Infringements

PostPosted:Sun Jul 14, 2019 7:19 pm
by gaznav
Peter, I don’t know you, but from an outsider perspective you do sound as though you are somewhat militant and anti-establishment. I am vehemently opposed to your view of the CAA and I am most grateful for the place we find ourselves currently in GA - much of which is thanks to the CAA. Which is why I wrote this post the other month:

viewtopic.php?p=1701358#p1701358

I still stand by that post and I would like to again thank the CAA for the things they have done for GA in recent years. I am sorry if I have got you wrong from the interpretation of your posts and their apparent viewpoints.