Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
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User avatar
By Flyin'Dutch'
#1705536
Either way it suggests that it was not abnormal to clip some CAS.

Anyway, someone suggested that speeding offences were not unintentional - well the ones I did were a moment of inattention, I never speed intentionally.

Should I get caught during one of those, I will take the fine/course on the chin.

Ditto for a CAS infringement and hope I only get the letter the first time. If it is the course then so be it.
By profchrisreed
#1705537
Flyin'Dutch' wrote:Going back to what was written before, I would not expect for infringements due to a moment of inattention to be dealt with any different as a speeding offence due to a similar moment of inattention, ie a speed awareness course.


There is a difference though, as the analysis I posted before shows.

Infringements which don't cause loss of separation just get a warning letter (repeat infringements etc aside).

Infringements which do cause loss of separation etc get the course.

I've already said that I'm not comfortable with a system where the outcome of a breach of the law differs according to factors outside the infringer's control or knowledge. If it's OK, I'd like those running the system to explain why, in order to convince the regulated (that's us) that it's not a purely arbitrary choice.
User avatar
By gasman
#1705538
Flyin'Dutch' wrote:
Ditto for a CAS infringement and hope I only get the letter the first time. If it is the course then so be it.


Not forgetting that the on-line tutorial/assessment is still meant to be an option.
User avatar
By defcribed
#1705540
Flyin'Dutch' wrote:Anyway, someone suggested that speeding offences were not unintentional - well the ones I did were a moment of inattention, I never speed intentionally.


I'd suggest you're in a minority then.

The traffic streams through the 30mph zone of my village at a steady 35mph. On the nearby A-road with a 50 limit, the traffic does 60mph all day long.

This is not accidental.
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By Flyin'Dutch'
#1705548
profchrisreed wrote:
Flyin'Dutch' wrote:Going back to what was written before, I would not expect for infringements due to a moment of inattention to be dealt with any different as a speeding offence due to a similar moment of inattention, ie a speed awareness course.


There is a difference though, as the analysis I posted before shows.

Infringements which don't cause loss of separation just get a warning letter (repeat infringements etc aside).

Infringements which do cause loss of separation etc get the course.

I've already said that I'm not comfortable with a system where the outcome of a breach of the law differs according to factors outside the infringer's control or knowledge. If it's OK, I'd like those running the system to explain why, in order to convince the regulated (that's us) that it's not a purely arbitrary choice.


The Notion that the judicial process comes to a different outcome for the defendant despite the same input is entirely normal.

If in an Argument it comes to a fist fight and one party gets knocked down and gets up again after a blow to the head the charge will be GBH/ABH but if during the same going down the hit party cracks their head open on the curb and subsequently die a much more serious charge and punishment will follow.
User avatar
By flybymike
#1705567
G-BLEW wrote:- Three days loss of earnings and two nights in a hotel? There's a three month window to find a course close enough so that you can replace hotel stays with a working alarm clock.
- People go on the course because they have infringed, the fact that it was unintentional suggests that there might be something to learn (ie strategies for avoiding distraction etc. etc.)

Looking at the published numbers, is it really disproportionate?

Ian


At least one contributor on here (an instructor I believe) had a five hour round trip, travelling costs, £200 for the course, a hotel bill, and at least two lost days.

The three month window with apparently one Saturday course per month amounts to a choice of three possible days with pot luck as to how far to travel.

Personally I’m the sort of chap who doesn’t glibly set his alarm clock and believe I can set off to a venue I have never visited before, with no knowledge of likely traffic delays, parking arrangements or locations and availability and cost for all day parking and any other variable unknowns. I would therefore arrange accommodation, leave the previous day, and make sure I had done the necessary reconnoitre lest the “late for the course” sword descends on me.

As for the course preventing distractions, mistakes, inadvertent occurrences, momentary inattention etc, these are all part of the human condition and the solution to these lies with God not GASCO or the CAA.
User avatar
By Miscellaneous
#1705570
flybymike wrote:As for the course preventing distractions, mistakes, inadvertent occurrences, momentary inattention etc, these are all part of the human condition and the solution to these lies with God not GASCO or the CAA.

That's what let's your argument down, fbm. To suggest that there is nothing on the course can help mitigate infringements is either just being pig headed, or at best, naive. Consequently it undermines your whole point.

Come on, there's a discussion to be had without the need for silliness. :D
User avatar
By James Chan
#1705573
I think he means human factors and limitations are not going to change.
User avatar
By Miscellaneous
#1705574
@James Chan, I can't see that interpretation myself, however even if that is the message it's still nonsense. It's true to say there will always be human factors and limitations, it's wrong to believe they are fixed.
By Longfinal
#1705577
flybymike wrote:Personally I’m the sort of chap who doesn’t glibly set his alarm clock and believe I can set off to a venue I have never visited before, with no knowledge of likely traffic delays, parking arrangements or locations and availability and cost for all day parking and any other variable unknowns. I would therefore arrange accommodation, leave the previous day, and make sure I had done the necessary reconnoitre lest the “late for the course” sword descends on me.


With that level of planning, probably unlikely to have to do the course then :D
By peterh337
#1705578
"Infringements which don't cause loss of separation just get a warning letter (repeat infringements etc aside)."

I know of definite cases where the above is not true.

Also don't forget the 3000ft/5000ft add-on (only the UK does this, in Europe) creates a "loss of separation" in many cases where there wasn't.

"Not forgetting that the on-line tutorial/assessment is still meant to be an option."

Not practically speaking. At the June Gasco there was a show of hands on how many did that route and out of 20 it was zero. Supported by May numbers which while ambiguous on other factors do show that at zero also.
By IMCR
#1705583
Why does the course take all day?

The speed awareness course for drivers is usually no more than four hours. If the course started later, and finished earlier, the issue of staying over night might be resolved for many. Do the course instructors stay overnight? If they do, this would be another saving. An 11 start and on your way home by four would make sense. Do people really need, or want, to take time out for lunch?

If you infringed in say April, the start of the season for some, you could fly for 3 months (maybe more) without attending the course - or in other words much of the Summer season. Is the logic that because you have been pulled up for a course, you are now extra careful, without needing to be told how to be extra careful? And, if you arent careful enough, and infringe again before you manage to get on a course, are you straight to the next level or not, because you havent yet been re-educated?

If you had to do a flight with a local instructor within say a month of the letter confirming this was an option, would the re-education be more effective and would it be less likely you would infringe again in the mean time?

Do we know how many pilots infringe again between their infringement and attending the course?

Do we know how many pilots that have been on the course infringe again say in the next 12 months, 24 months and 36 months?

Is this data being gathered and will it be published?
User avatar
By CloudHound
#1705584
In the PBN future of Required Navigation Performance to RNP .0001 :wink: and ADS-B what will an infringement with loss of separation look like?

The need for current volumes of airspace will have been removed so will the goal posts move?
By IMCR
#1705590
"LAIT are established at major infringement locations to design and implement local measures to reduce airspace infringements."

Also, now this has been running for a while, it would be very helpful to know what local measures have been designed and implemented to reduce infringments. I am not aware of any, so this would be especially helpful to make sure I am gaining the best advantages from any such measures.

I would say this is a really great idea and it would be very interesting to see what has been learnt.
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