Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
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User avatar
By gaznav
#1704940
skydriller wrote:
gaznav wrote:Finally, the sunlit uplands of ADS-B are not that far off at all. The take up of various forms of ADS-B in the UK, Europe and the USA is huge - the US now have 90,986 ADS-B Out aircraft with 64,959 fixed wing GA aircraft amongst that figure (FAA figures from 1 Jul 19).


I wish you'd stop coming out with this as it just isnt true.
Firstly, ADSB is mandatory in the US. Hence the numbers there.
As for Europe and the UK, certainly in my bit of Europe the only time I ever see an ADSB equipped aeroplane on the likes of FR24 etc is if its an airliner. There are very, very few GA aeroplanes using ADSB because the french were late in their Mode S derogation and everybody went out and installed Mode S, so pretty much the only F-reg GA seen on FR24 are MLAT ModeS derived flights.

I know you dont want to hear it, but you are the odd one out in having ADSB-out and no Transponder - In some utopian panacea 10years down the road you may well be right, but this is the reality right now.

Regards, SD..


SD

If I go flying with a device that only detects ADS-B Out then I normally see at least half a dozen training aircraft flying around Oxford/Kidlington, and at least double that floating around the Vale of Aylesbury. Looking at some screenshots I went flying for 30 minutes on 11 Jan 19 and in that time, within 15 miles my aircraft, I saw 6x Oxford GA training traffic (OXF22, OXF56T, etc...), G-BDFR, G-HMCF, G-EDGA, G-SBOL, G-ATXD, G-MICI, G-CEAR and myself in G-AVOH - all GA aircraft that were emitting ADS-B. There were also countless Commercial Air Transport (CAT) aircraft flying too (at least a dozen seen within a similar distance).

So on a mid-winter week day (not weekend), within 30 minutes, I saw 13x ADS-B Out GA aircraft (excluding mine) within 15 miles of me during a 30 minute sortie. Plus lots more CAT which would be of use if I was flying near Class D or a range of busy regional airports. On a busy flying day I often see more. So I am not sure how you can say “it just isn’t true” about ADS-B Out and GA aircraft? It would be interesting to see stats of exactly how many UK ADS-B Out GA aircraft there now is - I wonder if Airspace4All have those figures?

How many P3i did I detect - none (as I don’t have a PAW and only that will detect P3i). How many FLARM - none (it was a Carp day for gliding!). :thumright:
User avatar
By leemoore1966
#1704944
gaznav wrote:..Now if PAW had an option to use CAP1391’s low-power ADS-B Out, which I am sure could be done in place of P3i, then the 3,000(ish) PAW users would have an option to use that and then there would less of a need for PAW Multilateration as more an more GA aircraft started to push out ADS-B. Even SIL=0 ADS-B Out would be good enough for GA if you wanted to keep the costs down.

Please let us know by what date this will be in place so we can turn off the Multilateration rebroadcast service for the UK and Europe :lol:

Everybody has an option today to purchase the existing CAP1391 device, why do you need another ?
More interestingly, take a look at the GA Aviation Community threads on facebook, referring to the CAP1391 device such as this
C******* B*****: I’ve gone back to PilotAware. Most unimpressed with SkyEcho....

or this
M*** S*****: SkyEcho doesn’t do mode C or S though? It was a ‘coming soon’ in the advertising but they dropped it recently. You just get ADS-B and Flarm (if you’ve paid the extra subscription in SD).

or this
L******* B***: Have you read this pilotaware review? It detects far more than skyecho.
https://www.quizaero.co.uk/.../2019/05/ ... are-Review

or this
D**** B*********: Well I can finally say I'm totally unimpressed by the SE2. Not only does it see very little the WiFi continually drops off

on, and on and on ...

As for a ‘windfall for the avionics bods’ - not really, as CAP1391 devices are portable and so you don’t need an avionics bod to fit it. You can even use it in your aircraft under the existing radio licence - just like you can with a handheld VHF transceiver. So embodiment is ‘cheap as chips’ for these devices.

Portability is not a requirement or a suitable option for some, speak to somebody who flies a metal, or carbon fibre aircraft - if you do not have the option to mount antenna externally, then that is not going to work well at all, and that is down to pure physics that not even an 'international standard' is going to solve
(**Disclaimer** This particular brand of 'International standard' only available in the UK and Australia, please do not attempt to broadcast in any other Internationally recognized location)

Finally, the sunlit uplands of ADS-B are not that far off at all. The take up of various forms of ADS-B in the UK, Europe and the USA is huge - the US now have 90,986 ADS-B Out aircraft with 64,959 fixed wing GA aircraft amongst that figure (FAA figures from 1 Jul 19). Australia are looking to follow suit on CAP1391 too.
The Betamax is finished and the VHS has won..

That is absolutely wonderful news, I presume this means that you have claimed victory, in which case there is no need to continue posting the propaganda :lol:
It reminds me a little of Comical Ali in the Iraq war

BTW, things have moved on a little since those days of Betamax/VHS some of the younger forumites may not understand the comparison - maybe you should make a more contemporary victory statement reference using:
Streaming Downloads, Social Networks, 5G networks, Massively Parallel Processing, Machine Learning, and AI
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User avatar
By leemoore1966
#1704947
gaznav wrote:Finally, the sunlit uplands of ADS-B are not that far off at all. The take up of various forms of ADS-B in the UK, ... Australia are looking to follow suit on CAP1391 too.

BTW, is this true, I can only find this reference here
https://consultation.casa.gov.au/regula ... raft-1.pdf

The United Kingdom has an industry standard for low-cost electronic conspicuity devices (CAP1391). Electronic conspicuity devices operate on the 1090ES system; however, they are not designed to respond to ACAS interrogations, and hence would not be detectable by ACAS-equipped aircraft. As CASA considers that ADS-B equipment should be visible to as many airspace users as possible, we are not considering an electronic conspicuity-type device.

**edit**
There is a later doc that does describe this capability
https://consultation.casa.gov.au/regula ... 1701as.pdf
Portable avionicsCASA intends to proceed with rule changes that allow a portable ADS-B transmitter to be used by anyVFR aircraft (not just unpowered aircraft) according to the following circumstances:
In Classes D, E and G airspace, a portable device would be operable concurrently with an aircraft's existing Mode A/C transponder.
−The combination would make the aircraft visible on TCAS, ADS-B IN and ATS surveillance.

is that an and or is it an or - difficult to decipher
User avatar
By gaznav
#1704960
Hi Lee

There is equal disappointment from people who have tried using PAW - this from your own forum:

I have recently had to return my Pilot Aware and am disappointed that the unit was unable to attain my expectations. I have had a full refund and very happy with the service that I received from the company. The website promised that "Use Pilot Aware to know where everybody is located". As I was only able to identify Commercial Airlines and as a GA pilot, this only gave me information that was irrelevant.


Hi,
I bought a Rosetta Pilot Aware at Popham last May. For many reasons it has been sat in a cupboard at home since the other day.
I have a C42B with was factory built. I connected the Rosetta via the factory fitted USB socket but nothing happened. A friend who is an Electronics Engineer looked at the Rosetta and suggested that it is not working !


https://afors.com/aircraftView/43491

Quote:
Bought a year or so back, never really used much as had no where to put it in flight. Only used a handful of times. Licence has expired now (£12 to renew) so instead being sat on a shelf some else can use.


I also seem to recall that a few posters on here had stopped using it too - I just can’t be bothered to search the posts. I also recall reading people disappointed with it on FaceBook, I could find more I’m sure.

As ever, it is normally expectation management what these devices will and won’t do. I am sure that FLARM has the same criticism too.

:thumright:
By johnm
#1704981
Performance of all these devices must be critically dependent on a suitable location in the aircraft and good power supply.

The chances of a consistent performance across a range of aircraft is zero.

Having more or less decided that I'd go for SE2 on the basis of direct FLARM I'm now reconsidering PAW, because it has the best chance of the widest range of contacts at the lowest cost. We're already fully compliant ADS-B outer.
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User avatar
By leemoore1966
#1704982
gaznav wrote:Hi Lee
There is equal disappointment from people who have tried using PAW - this from your own forum:


Great, lets break these down with some important context
http://forum.pilotaware.com/index.php/t ... ml#msg7043
I have recently had to return my Pilot Aware and am disappointed that the unit was unable to attain my expectations. I have had a full refund and very happy with the service that I received from the company. The website promised that "Use Pilot Aware to know where everybody is located". As I was only able to identify Commercial Airlines and as a GA pilot, this only gave me information that was irrelevant.

Quite true this post is dated July 22, 2016, PilotAware was released May 31 2016 - not quite 2 months before.
This initial version of the Classic product could see ADS-B, of which as we all know there is precious little, other than CAT, and we had only been selling PilotAware for 6 weeks, I think we probably sold just over a hundred, so not much PilotAware out there, this was also prior to later developments of traffic detection and enhancement - specificallly addressing these concerns :-
    1. Mode-S Detection (bearingless)
    2. Mode-C Detection (bearingless)
    3. Integration of FLARM Mouse
    4. Uplink of FLARM over OGN-R
    5. Uplink of MLAT over OGN-R

http://forum.pilotaware.com/index.php/t ... l#msg16911
Hi,
I bought a Rosetta Pilot Aware at Popham last May. For many reasons it has been sat in a cupboard at home since the other day.
I have a C42B with was factory built. I connected the Rosetta via the factory fitted USB socket but nothing happened. A friend who is an Electronics Engineer looked at the Rosetta and suggested that it is not working !

This unit had a fault, and was replaced and returned to the happy (and still current) user after investigation
Thanks for finding this, I will ask the customer to post a final message regarding the resolution :thumleft:

https://afors.com/aircraftView/43491
Quote:
Bought a year or so back, never really used much as had no where to put it in flight. Only used a handful of times. Licence has expired now (£12 to renew) so instead being sat on a shelf some else can use.

Hmm, this link is broken, can you try again ?
It just says undefined ?
Reading the text you supplied, is the worst complaint you can refer to "had no where to put it in flight" ?
Thankfully as part of some of the Mod work done with the BMAA and LAA, you can now permanently install a PilotAware (out of sight) if you so wish

I also seem to recall that a few posters on here had stopped using it too - I just can’t be bothered to search the posts. I also recall reading people disappointed with it on FaceBook, I could find more I’m sure.
As ever, it is normally expectation management what these devices will and won’t do. I am sure that FLARM has the same criticism too.
:thumright:

Well I would say "in god we trust", all others please bring evidence :thumleft:
Last edited by leemoore1966 on Tue Jul 09, 2019 1:20 pm, edited 2 times in total.
User avatar
By buzzthetower
#1704983
Gaznav, to be fair, your examples of disappointed PAW users seems to quote people that just can't be **** to set it up and use it properly and probably bought it on a whim. We are interested in what functionality is provided or not by the various options and that is factually clear.
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User avatar
By skydriller
#1705003
@gaznav

Just checked FR24 for the oxford area, using the 5km scale so the area from Cirencester to High Wycombe.

Currently way more GA visible in Oxfordshire than my local area ( 1x german FLARM glider :( ).

18 "GA" contacts
4 gliders on FLARM
2 ADSB aeroplanes, one N, one G.
12 MLAT light aeroplanes, including a helicopter.

Im surprised as much shows up MLAT at low altitude, do those re-broardcast get picked up by FR24?

Regards, SD..

PS:Can I highlight this is a weekday snapshot. A weekend would obviously bring out more aeroplanes both in UK & France. MLAT works at around 4000ft in my area, which is why not so much tends to show up...
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User avatar
By gaznav
#1705009
SD - Thanks, both of our figures are but a snapshot, so we really need to understand actual numbers of ADS-B Out from Mode S ES and CAP1391 devices (there are others apart from SkyEcho :thumleft: ). I need to ask the LAA how many ADS-B Out mods they have received to try and get a better reflection on the numbers. :thumright:

Lee - now I have 30 minutes spare sat in the sun, I’ll see if I can rustle up a few more disgruntled comments for PAW users. :thumright:
User avatar
By leemoore1966
#1705013
gaznav wrote:Lee - now I have 30 minutes spare sat in the sun, I’ll see if I can rustle up a few more disgruntled comments for PAW users. :thumright:


Hi Gaz
Here is one of the disgruntled users you quoted, I asked him to follow up, and he kindly did

Gaz, you quoted the following
I have recently had to return my Pilot Aware and am disappointed that the unit was unable to attain my expectations. I have had a full refund and very happy with the service that I received from the company. The website promised that "Use Pilot Aware to know where everybody is located". As I was only able to identify Commercial Airlines and as a GA pilot, this only gave me information that was irrelevant.


This was resolved long ago, but the thread not updated, the user updated today
http://forum.pilotaware.com/index.php/t ... l#msg18099
Yes, all sorted. I sent my PAW back to the workshop, and they ran tests on it to identify the problem. The unit was fixed and returned to me after a thorough test.
It's now 'up and running' perfectly in my C42.
The commuications and service from the guys at PilotAware was first class.
I'm very pleased with my purchase. Indeed all of us at my home strip have PAW and find it a very useful piece of kit.

Tally ho !

:thumleft:
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By Shoestring Flyer
#1705014
gaz, et al,
I asked John Viner LAA Deputy Chief Engineer, at last years LAA Rally if I needed a MOD to fit PowerFlarmCore to my LAA aircraft. His reply was that no MOD was needed at all. 'Just fit it and get LAA Inspector sign off afterwards' were his exact words. :D
gaznav liked this
By Shoestring Flyer
#1705017
Just found this slightly disappointing comment on the PAW forum, posted today :-

'Once again its taken me pretty well two days to get my PA working again. You virtually need a degree in computing to own and operate PilotAware?
If I wasn't retired and have the time to mess around downloading updates getting it all installed and then having to do it all again because the damned thing won’t work properly I would have chucked it in the bin by now.
The other thing is that I now that lots of traffic is not picked up by PA as we know all about how transponders work etc.
I think PAW is just taking my eyes inside too much and I am missing some traffic I should be seeing and did see before I got PAW.
Lets hope that this update allows us to update the damned thing over wifi without all the messing about we currently have?
Or shall I go and buy a SkyEcho2 ?'
gaznav liked this
By dewidaniels
#1705019
leemoore1966 wrote:Everybody has an option today to purchase the existing CAP1391 device, why do you need another ?
More interestingly, take a look at the GA Aviation Community threads on facebook, referring to the CAP1391 device such as this


gaznav wrote:There is equal disappointment from people who have tried using PAW - this from your own forum:


It doesn't reflect well on either of you when you resort to slagging off the opposition. Why can't we focus on the merits of PilotAware and SkyEcho? This thread started with a perfectly reasonable question about the multilateration feature of PilotAware.
gaznav, Dave W, kanga and 1 others liked this
User avatar
By gaznav
#1705022
More less than complimentary comments about PAW:

So it actually looks like our skies are fragmented with different users on different systems & not everyone is visible to each other !! I will keep my unit 'as is' because it really is just a gimmick imho.


So am I to understand that the Beta testing unit I have is about as useful as an Ashtray on a motorbike now? I can see Airline traffic on it but I am guessing my PAW unit doesn't show up on their monitor? # Just as well I have MODE 'C' or MODE 'S' in the aircraft I fly :P #


Getting a bit frustrating now, I am sure I must be doing something wrong but with the original version working to some degree I am only doing the same with the latest version as I am with the earlier version.

Tempted to put the unit in the drawer until the testing has finished & the unit is idiot proof enough that it becomes User Friendly.


The negative is the extra mass of cables, the primary aerial which won't sit upright on the coaming because of the screen rake, the secondary aerial whose base is too small to stand up anywhere and really needs velcro or a big knob of Blu-tack and the bloody great battery that has to go somewhere.

Oh and by occupying FLARM feed it removes all those realtime SD bonusy things like updates TAFs etc.

Apart from that its a great bit of kit IMHO. :shock:


He has tweaked and persuaded my Pilotaware back into life at least 4 or 5 times. However as it stopped working about 24 hours after the last time he cajoled it into life - it's been consigned to a shelf in the office - never to fly again.


So after 2 flights I gave up the unequal struggle and stopped using it.
Now I don't think this makes me a bad person, an irresponsible pilot,a dangerous pilot even a Luddite:

It just didn't work for me (or two other group members) In fact I thought it was cr ap.
Inexpensive cr ap ,
But cr ap nonetheless.


As for Pilot Aware’s claims of thousands of users, that is probably how many they have sold. However, I know of many that bought them and used them a couple of times and then stopped - too many wires, loose dongles, intrusive antennae and the requirement for power from a seperate source. I was even offered one second hand for 50 quid, which I declined as you need to keep buying a licence to use it.


People flogging their PAWs on the internet (no reason given - but you wouldn’t say “selling this because I don’t like it” would you?):

20 Sep 2018 · I have an unused Pilot Aware Classic for sale - still in the box as delivered last year. This can be used straight out of the box or you may wish to upgrade it to the Rosetta spec. £150 + p&p or nearest offer.

Image

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PilotAware-C ... ect=mobile

https://afors.com/aircraftView/39580. (For spares or repair)
Last edited by gaznav on Tue Jul 09, 2019 5:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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