Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
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By David Wood
#1703170
Alert: potentially stupid question.

If I have multilateral targets enabled on my Rosetta and bearingless targets enabled on Skydemon then I should see targets that are radiating Mode S and which have had their location deduced by multilateration, right? So my [probably stupid] question is: do I have to be within range of an OGNR station to receive the information on those targets?
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By gaznav
#1703188
David Wood wrote:Alert: potentially stupid question.

If I have multilateral targets enabled on my Rosetta and bearingless targets enabled on Skydemon then I should see targets that are radiating Mode S and which have had their location deduced by multilateration, right? So my [probably stupid] question is: do I have to be within range of an OGNR station to receive the information on those targets?


Yes, you must be in range of a rebroadcast. Sadly, this is the main real drawback of this system. I would always advocate a ‘nodeless’ system when it comes to collision awareness/avoidance systems rather than rely on ground based infrastructure, which might be out of range, blanked by ground-obstructions (temporary or permanent) or unserviceable and thus leaving you ‘blind’ to what you expect to see.
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By johnm
#1703200
While I applaud PAW for their attempts to ensure the maximum coverage, I've concluded that depending on ground based facilities for EC is too unpredictable. I shall therefore be suggesting going for something that shows FLARM direct, ADS-B direct and then backing it up with a traffic service.

My logic is that most things that aren't transponding are either gliders or below the levels I usually fly at.
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By leemoore1966
#1703207
gaznav wrote:...Sadly, this is the main real drawback of this system. I would always advocate a ‘nodeless’ system when it comes to collision awareness/avoidance ...

There are 2 principles in which I firmly believe for success:-

Deal with the world as it is, not as you would like it to be
Wishful thinking is unfortunately just that, we have to live in the real world as it exists right now

Allow people to 'bring their baggage'
Changes in technology need to cater for the co-existance and continuation (or phased withdrawal) of existing technology
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By Tim Dawson
#1703218
Bearingless targets are a red herring for this question. Unfortunately, PilotAware has elected to send multilaterated traffic to SkyDemon just the same as if they were absolutely positioned, so you don't need to change any settings in SkyDemon at all in order for them to appear and to be advised about them verbally.

johnm, I would agree, and the direct FLARM decoding we offer has proved more popular than I thought it would be since we started selling it.
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By gaznav
#1703270
leemoore1966 wrote:
gaznav wrote:...Sadly, this is the main real drawback of this system. I would always advocate a ‘nodeless’ system when it comes to collision awareness/avoidance ...

There are 2 principles in which I firmly believe for success:-

Deal with the world as it is, not as you would like it to be
Wishful thinking is unfortunately just that, we have to live in the real world as it exists right now

Allow people to 'bring their baggage'
Changes in technology need to cater for the co-existance and continuation (or phased withdrawal) of existing technology


Absolutely @leemoore1966, to me dealing with the world as it is would have seen other EC devices taking up the offer of low-power ADS-B set out within the CAP1391 process. Further, direct decode of FLARM signals via a £20-£30 licence. That way, no need for a series of ground stations to support the function that could be directly detected in the aircraft - see and BE SEEN has to be the way ahead? As of 2020 all DJI drones sold will have ‘airsense’ fitted as standard and so any aircraft not fitted will with some form of ADS-B Out transmission will be still invisible to them. ‘Airsense’ is already available for some of their products right now. Now that the CAA have said that PtF aircraft will be able to fly with concurrent Mode 3/A or Mode S non-ES (EASA CofA aircraft are expected to follow soon after before anyone gets too excited) isn’t it time that Pilot Aware offered a low-power CAP1391 option? That way, if everyone is transmitting Class 1, Class 2 or CAP1391 ADS-B there would be no need to have any infrastructure to re-broadcast?

In light of recent developments (the CAA announcement on transponders and the DJI drone “airsense” plan) is it not time to act responsibly to offer a low-power CAP1391 option to Pilot Aware. Surely, it is time for Pilot Aware’s only emission, the P3i, to be consigned to the parts bin?

For those that don’t know about “airsense”, here is a short video. If you want drone pilots to avoid you then get ADS-B Out transmitting from your aircraft - either via your transponder or a CAP1391 low-power device like SkyEcho2.

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By Shoestring Flyer
#1703287
johnm wrote:While I applaud PAW for their attempts to ensure the maximum coverage, I've concluded that depending on ground based facilities for EC is too unpredictable. I shall therefore be suggesting going for something that shows FLARM direct, ADS-B direct and then backing it up with a traffic service.


I largely agree with your line of thinking johnm.
However unless I am wrong the only device which will do what you are asking is PowerflarmCore which is rather expensive, like the thick end of £2k by the time it is fitted and operational.
Skyecho 2 does not, I think, do Flarm and ADS-B simultaneously. You either have to have it tracking one or the other which could be not very practical in reality.
User avatar
By gaznav
#1703291
Shoestring Flyer wrote:
johnm wrote:While I applaud PAW for their attempts to ensure the maximum coverage, I've concluded that depending on ground based facilities for EC is too unpredictable. I shall therefore be suggesting going for something that shows FLARM direct, ADS-B direct and then backing it up with a traffic service.


I largely agree with your line of thinking johnm.
However unless I am wrong the only device which will do what you are asking is PowerflarmCore which is rather expensive, like the thick end of £2k by the time it is fitted and operational.
Skyecho 2 does not, I think, do Flarm and ADS-B simultaneously. You either have to have it tracking one or the other which could be not very practical in reality.


SkyEcho2 DOES receive FLARM and ADS-B at the same time. However, it transmits ADS-B too, whereas PowerFLARM transmits FLARM - so the 2 systems see each other perfectly :

You can’t receive weather and do FLARM at the same time. That might have been what confused you?

PS. Just to prove it - I am following G-SBOL that is emitting ADS-B and you can see 4060DD that is a Tutor from RAF Benson using PowerFLARM.
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By gaznav
#1703300
@Shoestring Flyer, sorry to jump on that so quickly but this Forum is so powerful that any errors quickly become lore. Yes, it is great news and that is why I am such a fan. If everyone had FLARM or ADS-B transmitting that would be even better!
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