Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
User avatar
By Volare
#1699713
I am currently working for an ATO and we have a student who wants to convert his NPPL Microlight Licence to a LAPL/PPL.

I asked him to email the CAA FCL department enclosing scans of his log book containing all of his training/flying to date. The CAA sent a reply referring to CAP 804 specifically the part below which suggests that his flying in microlights will count towards the grant of a LAPL, this seems to be at odds with the chart above.

The route is to carry out the required training below to add an SSEA to his current licence, then apply for a 'virtual LAPL' (CAA's terminology). Once he has his LAPL he will do what ever is required to upgrade his LAPL to a PPL. Also, only two exams are required not the 9 in the chart above.

I look forward to any comments with interest.

Below is taken from CAP804 Part 2
SECTION 2 CROSS-CREDITING LICENCES AND RATINGS TO NPPL(A) (SSEA)



[i]2.1.2 NPPL(A) (Microlight) or UK PPL (Microlight) to NPPL(A) (SSEA)
2.1.2.1 The holder of any UK issued aeroplane licence with a valid Microlight Class Rating or
UK PPL(M) licence without restrictions who wishes to obtain an SSEA Class Rating
shall:
a) produce the licence;
b) produce logbook evidence of currency on Microlight aircraft;
c) carry out such SSEA conversion training as is judged necessary by the FI(A) or
CRI(SPA) conducting the training to achieve the required standard for the applicant
to take the NPPL(A) NST and GST in an SSEA. This training must include:
i) not less than 1 hour of dual instrument appreciation;
ii) 2 hours stall awareness/spin avoidance training;
iii) differences training for Microlight pilots whose Microlight flying has been solely
on flexwing aircraft;
iv) Not less than the 32 hours required minimum total flight time for the NPPL with
SSEA Class Rating, which may be a combination of both Microlight and SSEA
flying.

d) pass the Part-FCL PPL(A) theoretical examination in Aircraft (General) and Principles
of Flight;
e) hold a valid NPPL Medical Declaration or Part-MED Class 1, 2 or LAPL medical
certificate;
f) pass the NPPL(A) NST and GST in an SSEA.
For the holder of a PPL(M) with operating restrictions, the requirements shall further
include:
g) the whole of the navigation training required for the NPPL(A) with SSEA Class Rating;
h) the completion of a minimum of 10 hours total solo flying which may be a combination
of Microlight and SSEA flying
[/i]
User avatar
By Balliol
#1699715
The conversion route from an NPPL ended with SSEA class ratings issued on or after 8 April 2018. Unless the question was asked oddly, the CAA advice is legally incorrect.
User avatar
By nickwilcock
#1699720
Balliol is correct.

Currently, the CAA is not minded to adopt a 'Modular LAPL' for the UK. It could be nugatory effort until the nonsense of the UK/EU exit farce has been sorted out and we know whether the UK will still be an EASA Member State, if not an EU Member State.

I have already suggested that the most appropriate form of a mLAPL would be as a way for holders of Microlight licences to gain limited SEP privileges, but other CAA work is having to take priority at the moment.
User avatar
By carlmeek
#1699730
Volare, I would appreciate any more information on this: we have a number of students that really need this clarifying in order to know which route to take.

I might bundle up one of their log books and email to CAA and try to get the same answer. Do you have a contact name?
By cockney steve
#1699790
The above should be ampl demonstration that the whole GA licencing- system is totally broken and clearly unfit for purpose.

It is, in my opinion, a major reason why people like me are put off even attempting to gain a Pilot's licence....too much effort for too little reward.
It appears that the professionals are stumbling around in the dark, giving wrong advice, leading to disgruntled and aggrieved customers who have absolutely no redress when they are set on a wrong and invariably more costly path to their objective. :(
User avatar
By carlmeek
#1699796
You aren’t wrong that it’s broken, but for a typical student coming into it, it’s no harder than it could otherwise be.
By B1engineer
#1699800
Disagree Carl,
I was granted nppl m last September. I started training the year before with the aim of getting ssea and lapl before April last year. This was not achieved due to weather cancellations and instructor availability.
Since then I have not gone ahead with ssea because it looks like I won't be able to fly EASA aircraft next year.
A typical student like me coming in won't be able to use 3 axis microlight hours towards gaining a licence to fly easa group A aircraft. I wouldn't mind flying under ssea and permit aircraft but unfortunately not many schools or clubs hiring them!

B1
User avatar
By Paul_Sengupta
#1699802
B1engineer wrote:Since then I have not gone ahead with ssea because it looks like I won't be able to fly EASA aircraft next year.


Don't do or not do anything because of what might happen. These also might happen:

1) The exemption will be extended as it has been in the past
2) We might leave EASA

You might also find that a nice share comes up in a permit aircraft in the meantime!
User avatar
By carlmeek
#1699836
B1, I agree for your case it’s a mess, that’s why I started this investigation. I was really replying to Steve: as in my experience the majority of students do a license and stick with it.
B1engineer liked this
By cockney steve
#1699960
^^^^^^^^ Yes, but because of the complexity, confusion and uncertainty,the new student trusts the instructor to be able to guide them accurately on the correct choice. As is obvious, it is not infrequently an ill-informed choice, but mistakes come out of the student's pocket, so it doesn't matter, eh? :P - After all, there's nothing stopping them paying for more training to get a different flavour of licence, is there.
B1engineer liked this
By patowalker
#1700045
Nah! All you need to do is play the system.
In Peru, 7.5h of free instruction got me signed off to fly solo. No licence, because the authorities hadn't realised ultralights existed. Flew a Chaser in Korea, also unregulated. In France, 0.8h with an instructor got me signed off to do the written exam and a ULM licence. That later allowed me to get a UK PPL(A)M after just 1.3h with an instructor, three exams and a GFT in my single seat Chaser. Needed some differences training to fly three axis. A further 5h under instruction, plus 2.7h supervised XC and 2 exams got me an NPPL SSEA, which then produced a LAPL in a form filling exercise.

No rude comments from Deanland pilots about my lack of formal training being very evident, please. :D
User avatar
By carlmeek
#1700054
Back to topic, I see the CAA website states the below.

It reads to me like a microlight pilot can do just 15 hours training with the 'other' 15 coming from their microlight.

Any thoughts on that? I am currently talking to someone who has just successfully done this very thing.
.........

Experience requirements and crediting

If you don’t already have a licence you will need to complete at least 30 hours of flight instruction on aeroplanes or TMGs, including at least:

15 hours of dual flight instruction in the class of aircraft you will be taking your skill test in - either a single-engine piston (SEP) aeroplane or TMG.
6 hours of supervised solo flight time, including at least 3 hours of solo cross country flight time with at least 1 cross country flight of at least 150 km (80 NM) that includes 1 full stop landing at an aerodrome different from the departure aerodrome.
User avatar
By Dave W
#1700064
carlmeek wrote:... instruction on aeroplanes or TMGs...

That distinction is a very annoying one, firstly because the EASA definition (in both design and ops definition documents) of an "aeroplane" is:
EASA wrote:'Aeroplane’ means an engine-driven fixed-wing aircraft heavier than air that is supported in flight by the dynamic reaction of the air against its wings.

...so logically a TMG is an 'aeroplane', and also because FCL choose to interpret the "or" as meaning you cannot mix your training between TMG and SEP otherwise the application is bounced.

A friend is currently facing extra training and circa £1,500 additional expense to address this pedantic interpretation, with zero additional safety or demonstrated competence effect.
By patowalker
#1700125
The 'reason' for that interpretation can be found in NPA 2014-29(A).

FCL.210.A PPL(A) —Experience requirements and crediting is amended by adding to the existing possibility to perform the training only on aeroplanes the words ‘or on a TMG’ to allow small ATOs owning only a TMG to perform training for the PPL(A) on a TMG and thus making the access to General Aviation easier.
By patowalker
#1700129
In my opinion, which is not worth much, microlight hours do not count towards an FCL licence.

In NPA 2014-29(A) EASA proposed
n FCL.035 Crediting of flight time and theoretical knowledge, in (a)(2) a new paragraph is added to allow credit for flight hours on aircraft listed in (a), (b), (c) or (d) of Annex II to the Basic Regulation.
. This does not include microlights. As we know, the proposal was rejected, because it required amendment of the basic regulation. The BR was amended and there has been lobbying from some stakeholders to include microlight hours, but the implementing rules are still outstanding.