Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
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By foxmoth
#1699171
Apart from the bit that says both pilots must agree before flying formation can anyone point me to anything in the regs about formation flying, more specifically things such as formation landings?
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By Cub
#1699183
Rule 10 states;

(1) Subject to paragraph (4), a flying machine or glider must not land on a runway at an aerodrome if there are other aircraft on the runway.
(2) If take-offs and landings are not confined to a runway—
(a) when landing, a flying machine or glider must leave clear on its left any aircraft which has landed, is already landing or is about to take off;
(b) a flying machine or glider which is about to turn must turn to the left if the commander of the aircraft is satisfied that such action will not interfere with other traffic movements; and
(c) a flying machine which is about to take off must take up position and manoeuvre in such a way as to leave clear on its left any aircraft which has already taken off or is about to take off.
(3) Subject to paragraph (4), a flying machine must move clear of the landing area as soon as it is possible to do so after landing.
(4) Paragraphs (1) and (3) do not apply if the air traffic control unit at the aerodrome otherwise authorises the flying machine or glider.


Therefore, unless the aerodrome (Duxford comes to mind) or operator concerned has a written exemption to Rule 10, formation landings would be illegal.
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By Human Factor
#1699185
Can’t remember where it’s written but formation landings require the airfield in question to have an exemption/approval. I’m sure an ATC expert can clarify.

Edit: Beaten to it.... North Weald has held this exemption in the past. Not sure if it still does.
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By Wildcat One
#1699196
We only ever seem to be cleared to land in formation at military establishments. i dont even bother asking at civil 'dromes anymore.

Formation departures - most places are quite happy to have us depart as a pair - it makes life a lot easier for us as we maintain equal energy and there is no catch-up .

Except Belgium - no formation take-offs there! :)
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By Cub
#1699203
Wildcat One wrote:Formation departures - most places are quite happy to have us depart as a pair - it makes life a lot easier for us as we maintain equal energy and there is no catch-up .


That is interesting because, of course, it is for the pilot to determine if he/she is compliant with the law, not the ATCO/FISO/A-G Operator/Aerodrome Manager. It is for the pilot to assure him/herself that either he/she or the aerodrome concerned has an exemption to Rule 10. It is the pilot that could be prosecuted not the bloke on the radio although I can think of a few A-G Operators who are very keen to remind you ;-)
By riverrock
#1699206
My understanding was an ATC Unit can authorise them - so not at anywhere that doesn't have an ATC Unit unless they get an exemption.
Its possible for them to be pre-arranged at Prestwick with ATC (for example) but then PIK is used to dealing with military traffic.
However an ATC unit likely has their own safety case to be able to justify allowing them, so they wont automatically say yes.
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By Cub
#1699228
riverrock wrote:My understanding was an ATC Unit can authorise them - so not at anywhere that doesn't have an ATC Unit unless they get an exemption.
Its possible for them to be pre-arranged at Prestwick with ATC (for example) but then PIK is used to dealing with military traffic.
However an ATC unit likely has their own safety case to be able to justify allowing them, so they wont automatically say yes.


ATC can authorise land afters which have specific criteria specified by in MATS Part 1 which may be elaborated in MATS Part 2 but that is different from formation use of the runway which is something I may choose to remind a pilot of, particularly if the aerodrome doesn’t have a generic Rule 10 exemption, but ultimately I will generally assume they know what they are doing and complying with the law i.e. THEY have the exemption.

Interesting this should come up because I believe this is quite topical with the Regulator ;-)
By riverrock
#1699234
Cub wrote: but that is different from formation use of the runway which is something I may choose to remind a pilot of, particularly if the aerodrome doesn’t have a generic Rule 10 exemption,

Where does it say they may not authorise it? Which rule forbades it, so an exemption is required? Feels like gold plating.

I've done formation / stream take offs from PIK (not landings) after appropriate briefings (etc) but not landings although I know others have arranged this. I don't know what hoops they went through for these arrangements. If an ATC unit clears a formation to land - who needs the exemption?
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By Cub
#1699242
riverrock wrote:
Cub wrote: but that is different from formation use of the runway which is something I may choose to remind a pilot of, particularly if the aerodrome doesn’t have a generic Rule 10 exemption,

Where does it say they may not authorise it? Which rule forbades it, so an exemption is required? Feels like gold plating.

I've done formation / stream take offs from PIK (not landings) after appropriate briefings (etc) but not landings although I know others have arranged this. I don't know what hoops they went through for these arrangements. If an ATC unit clears a formation to land - who needs the exemption?


Rule 10 forbids it, without an exemption. The ATCO cannot grant an exemption to the ANO. In a similar way, I also comply with your request and clear you for VFR flight in the Zone (perhaps not ATZ) when the weather is rubbish. You tell me you are VMC, I trust you. I do it - your responsibility. Not gold plating just deployment of some personal responsibility ;-)
By riverrock
#1699249
Cub wrote:Rule 10 forbids it, without an exemption.

Rule 10 says:
Paragraphs (1) and (3) do not apply if the air traffic control unit at the aerodrome otherwise authorises the flying machine or glider.

So what stops the ATCU authorising it?
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By davef77
#1699283
Wildcat One wrote:We only ever seem to be cleared to land in formation at military establishments. i dont even bother asking at civil 'dromes anymore.

Formation departures - most places are quite happy to have us depart as a pair - it makes life a lot easier for us as we maintain equal energy and there is no catch-up .

Except Belgium - no formation take-offs there! :)


Hmmm, that’s interesting. I am about to fly, in formation, via Belgium :thumright:

Sometimes it is amazing the things that people on here know :thumleft:
By Ridders
#1699289
riverrock wrote:
Cub wrote:Rule 10 forbids it, without an exemption.

Rule 10 says:
Paragraphs (1) and (3) do not apply if the air traffic control unit at the aerodrome otherwise authorises the flying machine or glider.

So what stops the ATCU authorising it?
I have always understood that ATC at a controlled airfield can allow this, but it is a no no at A/G or AFIS airfields, unless there is an exemption (as was at Kemble with UH where I did my formation landing training) and at The Weald where the exemption existed for the formation school (it was posted on the wall).
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By Wildcat One
#1699297
I have a very short memory! We were cleared to land as a formation last Sept at PIK on a weather divert, after a 10 min hold at 800' somewhere a couple of miles offshore - very grateful for it too, was I!
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