Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
By Lerk
#1694296
nickwilcock wrote:How many hours of instrument flying did you log?

Was the 15¼ hr to which you refer the total flight time, or the IF time? For the IR(R), the requirement is not less than 15 hr of instrument flying - which obviously does not include taxying, take-off, bad weather visual circuit etc.....


Actually it’s 15 hours of training - 10 hours of which by sole reference to instruments which is what they have stated in their email response...
User avatar
By T67M
#1694297
QSD wrote:I use decimal hours - much easier to add up.


I use minutes rounded to 5-minute steps - more accurate than 6-minute decimal hours, no need for a conversion table between blocks times and the logged time, and just as easy to add up for anyone competent in basic arithmetic.
User avatar
By nickwilcock
#1694309
Fair enough, Lerk - my understanding of the CAP804 requirement was at variance with the Authority's reply - CAP804 reads
The flying training for the initial issue of the IMC Rating must include a minimum of 15 hours in instrument flying of which up to 5 hours may be in a EASA- STD device qualified BITD, FNPT I or FNPT II, or up to 2 hours may be in other FSTDs recognised by the Authority. The remaining training must be completed in a suitably equipped dual control aeroplane.


Hope it's soon sorted out for you, so that you can enjoy using the rating!
By Lerk
#1694313
The daft thing is, for my normal flying excursions I just take the times and decimals from Skydemon which counts 15mins as 0.3hrs.

It’s only the training flights that I’ve worked them out using hundredths.

nickwilcock wrote:Fair enough, Lerk - my understanding of the CAP804 requirement was at variance with the Authority's reply - CAP804 reads
The flying training for the initial issue of the IMC Rating must include a minimum of 15 hours in instrument flying of which up to 5 hours may be in a EASA- STD device qualified BITD, FNPT I or FNPT II, or up to 2 hours may be in other FSTDs recognised by the Authority. The remaining training must be completed in a suitably equipped dual control aeroplane.


Hope it's soon sorted out for you, so that you can enjoy using the rating!


Is anyone else not surprised that the CAAs own documents don’t align...!

Im more worried about the fact I’m on holiday soon and Sod’s law says that’s the window of opportunity for them to send back my documents. :pale:
By chrisbl
#1694520
Lerk wrote:The daft thing is, for my normal flying excursions I just take the times and decimals from Skydemon which counts 15mins as 0.3hrs.

It’s only the training flights that I’ve worked them out using hundredths.

nickwilcock wrote:Fair enough, Lerk - my understanding of the CAP804 requirement was at variance with the Authority's reply - CAP804 reads
The flying training for the initial issue of the IMC Rating must include a minimum of 15 hours in instrument flying of which up to 5 hours may be in a EASA- STD device qualified BITD, FNPT I or FNPT II, or up to 2 hours may be in other FSTDs recognised by the Authority. The remaining training must be completed in a suitably equipped dual control aeroplane.


Hope it's soon sorted out for you, so that you can enjoy using the rating!


Is anyone else not surprised that the CAAs own documents don’t align...!

Im more worried about the fact I’m on holiday soon and Sod’s law says that’s the window of opportunity for them to send back my documents. :pale:



It is set out clearly in Standards document 25, 2.1.2
User avatar
By Dave W
#1694521
Which, obviously is is the responsibility of every individual student to know and understand in complete detail.

"But the plans were on display..."
"On display? I eventually had to go down to the cellar to find them.”
“That’s the display department.”
“With a flashlight.”
“Ah, well, the lights had probably gone.”
“So had the stairs.”
“But look, you found the notice, didn’t you?”
“Yes,” said Arthur, “yes I did. It was on display in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying ‘Beware of the Leopard.'"


Honestly, I sometimes think quoting obscure (for the average pilot) sources gets the poor bureaucracy off the hook.
skydriller, flybymike, Paul_Sengupta and 1 others liked this
User avatar
By Gertie
#1694522
Lerk wrote:Do you log flight time as decimal (a flight from 0900-1015 as 1.25 hours) or Hrs:Mins (same flight as 1:15).

The actual flight time is rounded to the nearest five minutes or the nearest six minutes depending on whether the invoice for the rental is in "hours and minutes" or "hours and decimals". The log book is in hours and minutes, so I convert the "hours and decimals" invoices accordingly. Resulting in my totals ending in some random number of minutes, but who cares, what's the problem?
User avatar
By Chilli Monster
#1694530
Hate to say this but I can see where the error has occurred, and I read it the same way as the CAA have. Unless you stipulate it’s decimals, they will read it as minutes because that’s how CAA accepted log books have timings - in hours and minutes, and that’s how people have been submitting licence applications for years - in hours and minutes. Decimals are not yet an accepted way of telling the time in this part of the world.

I do mine the way Steve C does his - never had a problem
Lockhaven liked this
By chrisbl
#1694587
Dave W wrote:Which, obviously is is the responsibility of every individual student to know and understand in complete detail.

down to the cellar to find them.”
“That’s the display department.”
“With a flashlight.”
“Ah, well, the lights had probably gone.”
“So had the stairs.”
“But look, you found the notice, didn’t you?”
“Yes,” said Arthur, “yes I did. It was on display in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying ‘Beware of the Leopard.'"


Honestly, I sometimes think quoting obscure (for the average pilot) sources gets the poor bureaucracy off the hook.


The standards documents are not obscure sources and the instructor should have gone through it with the student so that everything is clear.
“Standards Document 25 (A): Notes for the guidance of applicants taking the Initial Skill Test or revalidating the Instrument Meteorological Conditions Rating (Aeroplanes)”.

It is not the case of letting the Authority off the hook, but the instructor / flight school need to share the responsibility for not doing their job.

One of the first questions I ask before doing test is to ask whether the candidate has read the related standards document.
User avatar
By Lockhaven
#1694591
Chilli Monster wrote:Hate to say this but I can see where the error has occurred, and I read it the same way as the CAA have. Unless you stipulate it’s decimals, they will read it as minutes because that’s how CAA accepted log books have timings - in hours and minutes, and that’s how people have been submitting licence applications for years - in hours and minutes. Decimals are not yet an accepted way of telling the time in this part of the world.

I do mine the way Steve C does his - never had a problem


Likewise ^^^^ been using hours and minutes for the last 38 years of flying, never had an issue with the CAA or adding them up myself.
User avatar
By skydriller
#1694594
chrisbl wrote:One of the first questions I ask before doing test is to ask whether the candidate has read the related standards document.


Out of interest, how many candidates do you believe when they say "Errr...Yes. of course"

Is this not the equivalent of the "I Agree" box on umpteen Internet sites for terms and conditions that everyone obviously reads in full...? Hell, even SD has one of those screens which I have to say I dont think Ive ever read properly, and its only a few sentences, not the multi-page legalese on many sites - no doubt the "related standards document" is more like the latter...

Regards, SD..
User avatar
By flybymike
#1694621
One of the first questions I ask before doing test is to ask whether the candidate has read the related standards document.

I’m guessing that the only ones who would ever say “yes” are the ones to whom the document had previously been shown together with a request to read it,
By Lerk
#1694651
But the CAA themselves state the following:
Please note that as per the Regulations in CAP 804 Section 5 Part E applicants for the issue of an IR(R) rating should have completed at least 15 hours as pilot under training in instrument flying with an instructor in dual controlled aeroplane, as well as at least 10 hours of flying by sole reference to instruments.


It’s the same problem as the TK exam still referring to old rules.

I work in the food industry and have met auditors who would rip the CAA/EASA to shreds over their paperwork systems!
By Matth1542
#1694659
I log as hour and minutes.

On a related note, i feel your pain with the CAA. My application to have the IR(r) added has taken 2 months so far, with various back and forth.....