Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
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I’d reciprocate with asking you to bother looking out of the window for me, and not to rely on a device that’s sketchy in terms of thoroughness, at best.

That's a bit harsh. How can you make such a statement if you haven't used PAW FLARM or SKY Echo?

If you do happen to have Skydemon then the way forward is to connect your tablet to PAW via wifi (follow the instructions from either vendor and its quickly done) and then use an audio cable from your tablet to your intercom to get the even more advanced audio warnings from Skydemon.

Yes, I agree. I have used SD Voice and find it very good. The work that the team at Sky Demon has done integrating EC and en route information with voice is very good demonstrating how the whole of Electronic Conspicuity is evolving through innovation and customer demand. Interoperability is the way forward. Other products are available and have equally meritious features.
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Whenever we discuss this, the argument is made that people will be heads inside when they should be relying on Mk1 Eyeball and looking out. However, we're also constantly reminded that the actual Mk 1 Eyeball is actually not very good at the task of spotting threats. (People often speak about an EC system telling them about loads of aircraft that they never see.)

How do we square that circle.

Also, I fly with SD on a yoke mount so it's there but not in my direct eyeline - it's in my peripheral vision. Are not eyes better at spotting movement in the periphery (and see detail in the centre) therefore I'm likely to see a warning (be it airspace or traffic or whatever) and able to glance down to see what the warning was? (Audible warnings make even glancing unnecessary.)

Also how many aircraft are there out there that will not be "seen" by PAW? I'm guessing that we're speaking of non transponder and Mode A txpdr only (or those with txpdrs turned off.) What proportion of the GA fleet would that be? Any educated guesses?
Maxthelion wrote:There is no Mode S conflict because PAW does not (yet) do ADSB out.

Many thanks for your response. :thumleft: I must be getting confused with some other system that I believe had to have Mode S disabled if ADS-B out was active. :?

I do presently have SD and indeed have the SD specific warnings through my headset via Bluetooth. Can Bluetooth and WiFi be active simultaneously?

Oh I hear my credit card creak under the potential strain, it’s not PAW in itself, it’s the accumulation. :lol:
leemoore1966 wrote:
TheFarmer wrote:In the same way that you’d probably ask me to buy PAW for your safety, I’d reciprocate with asking you to bother looking out of the window for me, and not to rely on a device that’s sketchy in terms of thoroughness, at best.

I’m quite taken aback at this and not sure I know how to react to that statement, are you serious, or is this dramatic effect to emphasise your point ?
If you are serious I would like to hear why you say
sketchy in terms of thoroughness, at best

Err, because people have said they’ve found its intermittent and returns a lots less than what’s up there around us. :?

I wasn’t having a pop, I was just commenting on another pilot’s comments! :scratch:

As I said, it’s a great concept, but things that encourage more and more ‘virtual flying when one is actually flying’ aren’t always a good thing in my opinion.

But what do I know.
Thanks Sean. That’s kind.

But what do I do?

Stare at my lap?

Rely on people having the right kit? I don’t really get it TBH.

It’s like expecting to stop car crashes IF everyone listens to Radio 2, AND they have Michelin tyres, AND they are using Blaupunkt radios. Otherwise, they’re invisible?

I’ve flown several thousand GA hours in 28 years and I honestly don’t think this is an advancement in flight safety. Sorry.
Don't let him kid you, Farmer's new machine will have all the bells and whistles and we know he has SD to go along.

It does have all the bells and whistles, but I don’t see how PAW will add safety. I’d prefer to use my eyes.

As for SD, yes, I do use it nowadays and I like it a lot, as something that’s on the seat next to me to make sure I’m not going geographically awry in my fifth decade. :wink:
Tim Dawson wrote:We’ve thought about that before, and I’ve explored the possibility of not actually snapping the line to waypoints, but making it appear to snap while actually picking a random location several hundred metres from the target. We didn’t end up doing it though.

At enroute scales the magenta line must be a mile wide anyway, and also, nobody is forced to fly exactly along the middle of it. Who wants to fly that precisely? (Genuine question)

I've said it before, but living in a village that's a VRP on SD, we seem to have an amazing amount of flights bang over the middle of the village nowadays that we just didn't have 5 years ago. Many of them clearly using it as a turning point. Only 3 miles of open space all around it to fly in. Not a complaint, but I can't think of any other reason why we get them other than GPS nav. Despite being a VRP, the village isn't particularly note worthy, not like a power station, bridge, etc that I could understand people visually navigating via.
There is no Mode S conflict because PAW does not (yet) do ADSB out.

What do you mean by this Max?

There is no bearingless target audio (Mode C and Mode S) because Tim does not think it is warranted on Skydemon. EasyVFR does have bearingless target audio. Horses & courses.

PAW does not have ADSB Out but that has nothing to do with Mode S conflict.

At the end of May PAW will, if all goes according to plan, release a version which will effectively introduce multilateration of Mode S. This means that Mode S targets will no longer be bearingless and I would assume Tim will then incorporate the audio alert for those targets because it is only the bearingless part he is not enamoured with. Mode C, of course, will continue to be bearingless.

ADSB In, PAW and Flarm rebroadcast all have position data tagged onto their message, so their position can be shown and full audio information given.

The lack of ADSB Out is not the reason for PAW not providing audio information on Skydemon.
Last edited by PaulSS on Thu May 16, 2019 1:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
I’ve flown several thousand GA hours in 28 years and I honestly don’t think this is an advancement in flight safety. Sorry.

What an absolutely ridiculous statement. You'll be telling me next that TCAS has not advanced flight safety because one has to look inside to see what's being said. PAW etc is far more useful than TCAS because it doesn't just say 'Traffic. Traffic' but it actually tells you where to look. Sure, PAW etc does not do conflict resolution but to say to doesn't advance flight safety is absolutely absurd.

ANY system that alerts us to unseen traffic is good and improves our chances of not smacking into him. Your view that because you're staring out of the window and not listening or looking at information being provided to you (because that's the way you've always done it) is so wrong that I can't believe a person with 'several thousand GA hours' would even write such nonsense.

It is a FACT that our eyeballs are not the perfect instruments that you claim in your belief that looking outside 100% of the time is the way ahead. You are NOT going to see fewer targets by having a machine close by that indicates visually and audibly things of interest. At worst you will see the same number but I can absolutely guarantee that if everyone on this forum had some form of EC that we WOULD see more traffic than your suggestion that we ignore the distractions of technology and stick to how Wilbur got by.

My 36 years reckons you're wrong and this IS an advancement in flight safety :thumleft:
AlanK, seanxair, T67M and 6 others liked this
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