Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
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#1693689
I am sorry if I have hurt your feelings, as that is not my intention.

But to think that anyone who interacts with pilots will have a handle on what they get up to is gravely mistaken.

At my busiest I would see more than a thousand pilots a year and that kind of interaction for 45 or 60 minutes may give a bit of an insight into their person and being I could not guess whether any of them would ever do or has done anything counter to the regulations.

Even when dealing with people (both alleged perpetrators and victims) in the criminal justice system it would be impossible on one's encounter with the person to determine what is what. Luckily enough that is also not the job of the doctor.

And in most good judicial systems it doesn't depend on people's impressions whether someone is guilty but on having evidence.
#1693709
"At my busiest I would see more than a thousand pilots a year and that kind of interaction for 45 or 60 minutes may give a bit of an insight into their person and being I could not guess whether any of them would ever do or has done anything counter to the regulations."

I didnt realise you did medicals.

I think that would be an explanation.

Instructing / "examining" in aircraft is a very different skill set from evaluating a patient in your consulting room I would suggest, and why would you expect to have any pesonal knowledge of the pilot's activities and / or background?

I know of a few pilots who have a reputation for not being safe, or of being involved in things they should not. I also know that this knowledge is not especially privileged, but reasonably well known. It would be naive to think this was not also known to local instructors and examiners. In fact I know it is.

My point is the pilot community is quite closely knit and at many airfields you would be well to know how much other pilots are aware.

Of course there are exceptions. You might equally have concerns about the circumstances of a pilot who travels a long way to have his credentials revalidated, when there are plenty of examiners / instructors locally. Why would you want to do that?

BTW you havent hurt my feelings the slightest. However, I dont see the point in a debate interjected with flippant and unjustified comments to a serious point - even if you dont consider the point serious. At least extend the courtesy of justifying your comment as you have now sort to do, and could have done in the first place. And sorry if that sounds very dull, I actually usually enjoy the banter here, but I do sometimes think it spills over into more than banter. Please forgive me.

Oh, and as to evidence - there is a difficult question. I dont see the comparison with the judicial system. Our process of advocacy is that that there is clear division between the two parties providing the evidence and the defence.

In aviation there is the clear duty of looking after your own. Can you go home knowing that when it comes to safety and legality you should have said something and didnt? It is encouraged in the commercial sector and I have a pretty good knowledge of how it works in one of the major airlines as a close friend is head of training and pilot standards.

Of course I am not suggesting that it is always the solution, or that there arent pilots who will escape scrutiny. I am simply suggesting that I think there are instructors / examiners who have a pretty good idea what is taking place on their local patch and will make the point that perhaps the pilot needs to consider more carefully the type of flying they are doing and whether this is in accord with either their skill set or their legal priviliges?
#1693780
Flyin'Dutch' wrote:
defcribed wrote:Who would be stupid enough to issue paperwork for a bent charter? Unless of course the invoice described some other services.... perhaps that's how they run it in a business-like fashion.


You forget that the objective of the exercise is maximising income and minimising cost and in the quest thereof people become greedy.

This is not about people getting an extra fiver for a great service rendered.


Someone providing an illegal service that they know full well is illegal would have to be monumentally stupid to provide an invoice for said service.

I'll stand by that assertion. Even your local drug dealer isn't stupid enough to give you a receipt.

I'll also stand by my (thus far unanswered) point about the passengers. What incentive do they have to talk to the authorities? It's not them that's breaking the law so they've nothing to fear - other than the loss of their cheap transport. I'm sure anyone using their services regularly is not naive to the legal situation.
#1693782
It could be that an invoice for a legitimate share of the cost of a flight might be issued so that the sharer could claim it as a business expense if that was the purpose of the trip.

We know that PPLs have stepped into the breach to do legitimate cost sharing flights when scheduled services have failed to perform....
#1693789
defcribed wrote:Someone providing an illegal service that they know full well is illegal would have to be monumentally stupid to provide an invoice for said service.....

Yes, agreed.

I'll stand by that assertion. Even your local drug dealer isn't stupid enough to give you a receipt.....

They probably don’t get asked for one :D

I'll also stand by my (thus far unanswered) point about the passengers. What incentive do they have to talk to the authorities? It's not them that's breaking the law so they've nothing to fear....

And that is the very reason they would probably cooperate

- other than the loss of their cheap transport. I'm sure anyone using their services regularly is not naive to the legal situation.
#1693810
I meant that they have nothing to fear from continuing with the illegal arrangement. Not that they have nothing to fear from talking to the authorities.

If they talk to the authorities, they might lose their cost-effective transport.

Most people don't grass unless they have something to gain by grassing or something to lose by not grassing. The Channel Islands are relatively small communities and I doubt that grassing someone up is a good strategy for a happy and care-free life there.
#1693812
Imagine a scenario whereupon one operator made, say, 8 flights over a weekend and had 3-4 people.

All names / passports on the GAR. FPLs filed. None of the flights are linked and noone knows each other.

Would you honestly expect everyone to keep schtum and play ignorant when questioned by the police? Why would they expose themself and lie to the police or in court. That is more foolish than an invoice! (Which I have seen. How else would any ‘business’ keep up to date with multiple transactions.....!?!?????)

I have also seen friends who are lawyers/business people ask me for flights. I have spent hours explaining the legal position and worst of all, the risk of getting into a light aircraft with an unknown pilot*

(* not suggesting that pilot is unsafe btw. I know of at least one person who does a lot of cost sharing and I have flown with them at other times without any fear)
#1693814
" I'll also stand by my (thus far unanswered) point about the passengers. What incentive do they have to talk to the authorities? It's not them that's breaking the law so they've nothing to fear - other than the loss of their cheap transport. I'm sure anyone using their services regularly is not naive to the legal situation."

I disagree.

Someone has died. The whole industry and the regulator are under the spotlight.

If questioned with that in mind and being an innocent party, why would anyone then open themselves up to being guilty of perverting the course of justice.

I think its time for everyone to man up and tell the truth. Lets prevent this terrible situation ever ever happening again.
AlanM liked this
#1693816
Most people don't grass unless they have something to gain by grassing or something to lose by not grassing. The Channel Islands are relatively small communities and I doubt that grassing someone up is a good strategy for a happy and care-free life there.


Hmmm, an interesting reflection on society. Of course, the counter argument is that we should self-police otherwise the less-informed will choose to police us.

Maybe I went to a different school but many of us aren't for turning a blind eye, especially when it comes to potential safety issues.

What route would you prefer to follow?
AlanM, Waveflyer, imperialsam and 1 others liked this
#1693820
I didn't read defcribed's post as supporting that viewpoint; rather, I read him to be saying that, sadly, is how many people often actually behave.
#1693825
I don't think it's as straightforward as you all seem to think.

Sala was months ago now, and if as Alan says the aircraft involved are well-known and obvious then the authorities have had plenty of time to swoop if they could.

It isn't as simple as saying that passengers won't lie to the police or in court. Of course they won't lie, but they don't have to. The police can approach them at the airport and say would you mind answering a few questions, and if they decline (or cease answering once they realise where this is going) then there is nothing the police can do short of nicking them. And nick them for what? As far as I can tell being a passenger in a possible bent charter isn't an offence in itself, and nor is failing to assist the police in their enquiries.

Frankly I think that the statement that they are watching certain aircraft is probably a tactic in itself to try and get people to stop it because they know they're being watched. Unfortunately I imagine the pilots doing it know the regulations and the legal position very well and know exactly what they need to avoid doing in order to avoid getting banged to rights.

Passengers 'talking' is a risk, of course, but I think the majority of passengers probably know the situation and have no incentive to rock the boat. Besides, it takes more than one chat on the ramp to convict someone of operating without an AOC. You'd need multiple passengers on the same flight being prepared to stand up in court and tell all, and that would only happen if they fell out with their operator in a very big way.
#1693827
Dave W wrote:I didn't read defcribed's post as supporting that viewpoint; rather, I read him to be saying that, sadly, is how many people often actually behave.


Thanks Dave, that's correct.

I don't particularly support that viewpoint, but I think it probably is reality. One would be surprised how entrenched the mantra of "you don't grass" is in many communities.

People who have a vested interest in the activity continuing are even less likely to grass.
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