Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
#1693020
shortstripper wrote:I'm not saying they're less or more safe, just pointing out that I see more reports of this type downed than any other.


Or maybe (speculation) there are simply more of them than other types in use....?
#1693022
PeteSpencer wrote:So, then Cirrus owners is there a warning sign on the outside to alert rescuers to a downed Cirrus that there is an unexploded bomb inside that might maim or kill them?

Peter :roll:


Standardisation of safety warnings and training non-airport rescue services on CAPS type systems is something the AAIB have been pushing for a while and something the manufacturers have been lagging on somewhat.

There is also a very different level of acceptable risk to rescuers depending on whether you’re saving lives or removing an obstruction.
#1693033
Not my video, Credit to John Markham.


Last edited by Rob P on Mon May 13, 2019 7:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
#1693034
Josh wrote:
PeteSpencer wrote:So, then Cirrus owners is there a warning sign on the outside to alert rescuers to a downed Cirrus that there is an unexploded bomb inside that might maim or kill them?

Peter :roll:


Standardisation of safety warnings and training non-airport rescue services on CAPS type systems is something the AAIB have been pushing for a while and something the manufacturers have been lagging on somewhat.

There is also a very different level of acceptable risk to rescuers depending on whether you’re saving lives or removing an obstruction.


Here are links to a couple of resources published by Cirrus about this:

http://firstresponder.cirrusaircraft.com/Video.aspx

Once you are past the slightly syrupy introduction, it is quite informative about both BRS as fitted to both Cirrus and other aircraft; and about the IMSAFE airbag systems as well.

http://firstresponder.cirrusaircraft.com/2013-11-04cirrus1stresponderinformationmanual.pdf

This is a detailed guide for first responders.

Also, note the Cirrus 24 hour international emergency number which is on the title page of the video.

Of course, the question that this begs is: to what extent are our emergency services aware of all this?
#1693036
Abergavenny airfield - I took a 180hp 172 in there a few years back to visit Frank - It’s rather ‘hilly’. I wouldn’t choose to land a Cirrus/Diamond etc there.

PS. Absolutely no implication that this was the intent of today’s pilot.
#1693049
PeteSpencer wrote:
Lefty wrote:No. Which is probably why the fire service haven’t attempted to move the wreckage yet.


It was fortunate, then, for the occupants, that the rescuing motorists in their ignorance were not so cautious.

Peter


According to BBC News one of the two motorists who got them out was a former Army Bomb disposal Officer
PeteSpencer liked this
#1693050
It’s just down the road from me and though not flying at the mo, I’ve landed EF the C150 and the Pup I used to fly as well. It’s not that challenging though I used a fair bit of runway. Mainly used by micro lights and that lovely Pioneer. Anyway, there are big hills around here but nothing too difficult. But that’s from someone with local knowledge. ;)
Rob P, Colonel Panic liked this
#1693053
Ben K wrote:
shortstripper wrote:I'm not saying they're less or more safe, just pointing out that I see more reports of this type downed than any other.


Or maybe (speculation) there are simply more of them than other types in use....?


Really?! :lol:

More than PA28’s and 172’s that fly thousands of incident-free hours in comparison, and have for decades?

I’ve been saying it for ages. The Cirrus is rapidly proving itself to be unreliable and dangerous.

Compounding that is the fraternity of shiny fresh PPL’s who buy one when they have far more money than flying experience and who seem to be using up a rather worrying volume of AAIB ink and A4 paper.....

If we were still all on dial-up, we would have to receive the Cirrus incident reports via Royal Mail, as they’d clog up the UK’s internet.
#1693057
@Jonzarno I appreciate cirrus makes this information available, but frankly some form of unambiguous usual marking in a manner similar to the big red triangles found on aircraft with ejector seats is in the opinion of both the AAIB and fire services much more appropriate. I have no knowledge either way, but I would be disappointed if either Cirrus or a manufacturers body were not actively preaching to fire services in countries that are major operators, rather than passively providing information on their website which is only useful if you know to look for it in the first place.

Personally, I think cirrus aren’t interested in putting big red triangles with “DANGER” on their aircraft because it would hurt both their appearance and their marketing.
#1693059
The placard is not highly obvious. From the Cirrus First Responders' Manual, it is (apparently typically) in black and relatively small font - the placard is about 6.5 inches wide - and says:

From the same document:
Fire and/or heat can cause the rocket to launch making it a projectile hazard. In some cases the rocket
assembly survives the impact and the igniter and rocket motor are set off by the post-impact fire.
In other cases the rocket may have tumbled free of the igniter assembly during the crash. When this happens the fire (or heat) will light off the rocket and igniter separately or one and not the other.
Where the rocket motor will fly is completely unknown in such instances.

It is recommended non-essential personnel be kept at the minimum safe distance of 1000 feet or greater.
Personnel directly involved in the rescue of occupants or firefighting are recommended to use full bunker
gear / safety equipment.

Obviously, you wouldn't be able to read an external placard that size from 1000ft away.
#1693066
patowalker wrote:
PeteSpencer wrote:So, then Cirrus owners is there a warning sign on the outside to alert rescuers to a downed Cirrus that there is an unexploded bomb inside that might maim or kill them?

Peter :roll:


Yes. Microlights with BPRS have them too.

https://www.bmaa.org/files/til_063_ballistic_parachute_recovery_system.pdf


Well now!

The microlight brigade are far more advanced in the danger signage than are Cirrus:
Why should that be?

Why should Cirrus be reluctant to alert would be rescuers to potential danger when one of their expensive aeroplanes crashes?

I think I may have answered my own question. :roll:

Peter