Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
#1691857
So, two incidents (I don’t believe in the word “accident”), both fatal, both in supposed inclement weather, both in an aircraft capable of flying considerably higher than they were.

When are people going to learn - press-on-itis kills, spending an extra night in a hotel is far more enjoyable and life sustaining. Also - nobody ever died colliding with the sky.

In the final analysis we all know this journey, like the Sala incident, could have been conducted safely if sound Captaincy skills and decision making had been employed. There is no place for ego in aviation.
Adrian, Flyin'Dutch', 2Donkeys and 1 others liked this
#1691858
A pressurised and deiced SEP, which appears never to have climbed much above 2000ft, and certainly never reached MSA. If a technical problem prevented climb, why not return to Goose Bay? If weather prevented it, then they shouldn't have taken off. Easy to say in hindsight, of course, but looking at the weather reports and forecasts for the day of the flight, it looked like a great day for staying on the ground.
#1691947
Chilli Monster wrote:So, two incidents (I don’t believe in the word “accident”), both fatal, both in supposed inclement weather, both in an aircraft capable of flying considerably higher than they were.

When are people going to learn - press-on-itis kills, spending an extra night in a hotel is far more enjoyable and life sustaining. Also - nobody ever died colliding with the sky.

In the final analysis we all know this journey, like the Sala incident, could have been conducted safely if sound Captaincy skills and decision making had been employed. There is no place for ego in aviation.


My question about the commanders training and experience on type was deleted. But I will ask it again as both Chilli and I know how unforgiving the PA46 is in untrained and inexperienced hands.
#1691951
I'm not normally one to attempt to stifle debate on fresh accidents, but I'm not comfortable with the commander's training and experience being called into question, particularly when who was P1 has not yet been established. It has the potential for the wrong man being fingered for poor command decisions and then potentially career-ruining stories being published by an uncaring press.

I do however believe it to be ok for the direct causes of the accident to be discussed as there is normally something to be learned, even if the speculation is wrong, as it may prompt one of us to do something differently in the future that ensures we make it home to our loved ones. If we can do that without pointing fingers then I'm all for it.
A le Ron liked this
#1691953
It appears to have flown into the side of the last big hill in Newfoundland, having flown across the province in dreadful weather below 2000ft. The pre-departure TAF for their destination forecast winds of 40G50KT.

I don't think technical ability to fly the aeroplane is the issue here.
#1692793
Sorry for the delay in returning the thread, a quick word to future posters…

- The only reason to discuss an accident is so that we can learn from it
- This and other similarly tragic threads have to be about learning, not about a keyboard trial
- Don't make it personal, whatever happened this will be a traumatic time for everyone involved

Thanks

Ian
Dave W, Kittyhawk, Jonzarno liked this
#1692950
Maxthelion wrote:I'm not normally one to attempt to stifle debate on fresh accidents, but I'm not comfortable with the commander's training and experience being called into question, particularly when who was P1 has not yet been established.


The PA46 is a Single Pilot Aircraft

P1 is therefore the A/C Commander

Sam has already stated he was head down working on his laptop when the impact occurred. He therefore could not be the Commander.

Notwithstanding the above “Head down working on your laptop” strikes me as a pretty stupid decision in those conditions during that phase of flight. Could it (should it?) not have waited until the Aircraft was established in the cruise? There is a place for utilising CRM principles, and this was definitely it - why weren’t they?

Of course, the “Passenger” could not have been “employed” as a Paid Ferry Pilot, as his medical is only a Class 3, therefore only allowing Private privileges to be exercised. Therefore his status was purely as a “Passenger”, which the official report will no doubt reflect. However, who knows if this could have been avoided with more proactive participation and discussion, utilising all the experience and knowledge available in the Aircraft.
#1692952
This strikes me as almost the same as the David Hockings accident coming back from Portugal in his Arrow. Two experienced pilots flying low level into a hill. Why would instrument rated pilots do this ? Unless they are descending into cloud after engine failure in a single engine type.
#1692953
Adrian wrote:It appears to have flown into the side of the last big hill in Newfoundland, .?.


<Ahem> in Labrador/ Nunatsiavut, as the thread title says. Thanks (Nakungmek, neskamiten) </>

(My many relatives and friends there may sometimes be sensitive on this, in a polite Canadian way, of course; rather as Welsh, Scots, Irish folk may not like being called 'English').
Newfy liked this
#1693017
Chilli Monster wrote:Sam has already stated he was head down working on his laptop when the impact occurred. He therefore could not be the Commander.

Notwithstanding the above “Head down working on your laptop” strikes me as a pretty stupid decision in those conditions during that phase of flight. Could it (should it?) not have waited until the Aircraft was established in the cruise? There is a place for utilising CRM principles, and this was definitely it - why weren’t they?



This and the fact they were at 2k are the two things I just don’t get.

In that aircraft, which I know very well, there is simply no reason to be there that low. You would always climb, and if you can’t, you would turn back.

On some sort of ad hoc leg, at low level in a snowstorm, I also can’t see how an experienced pilot would be on his/her laptop.
Adrian liked this